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buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:00 am
by end
i've read a decent amount of the pali canon sections on meditation but there are a few things i haven't seen. generally we sit on the floor or a mat with our legs in the lotus posture, hands in a mudra, back straight, eyes half shut or all the way shut, and focus on our breathing. however in my reading i can't find anywhere the buddha specifies what to do with the eyes, back, hands, or legs (as in explaining that one should specifically use lotus).

he just says to sit and set up mindfulness in front of you and focus on your breathing.

is there somewhere that he specifies all the other aspects or is this just something that has developed over time? i think the biggest thing is eyes open or shut. does anyone know? if you know where in the nikayas that would be awesome.

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:13 am
by Euclid
Hi end

In the mahasatipatthana sutta the Buddha specifies:
"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
That covers the parts of your question regarding your back and your legs. As for your hands etc, I'm not sure if it's ever specified in the suttas, although perhaps your best bet for meditative technique would be Vism. or Vimuttimagga. I haven't read either of those though so I'm just speculating. Perhaps somebody better versed in the nikayas than I will be able to shed some more light :)

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:30 am
by cooran
Hello end,

I think this is something you could discuss with a teacher of meditation - or do what is helpful when you sit yourself. I don't know of any Sutta which goes into anymore detail than you have found yourself. But there is a lot on the internet by teachers well-versed in the Dhamma and experienced in meditation.

Here is something from our Bhikkhu Pesala:

Sitting Meditation
The traditional posture for sitting meditation is that seen in many images of the Buddha — cross-legged with a straight back, the eyes half-closed and the hands resting in the lap. Long experience has shown this to be the most suitable posture. However, you may also meditate sitting on a chair if you support your back and keep it straight. In either case it is important not to change the position frequently, if at all, since every movement will interrupt concentration.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Med ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is not meant to be a gruelling ordeal - so I often use a straight-backed chair, or a kneeling stool.

with metta
Chris

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:19 pm
by end
cooran wrote:Hello end,

I think this is something you could discuss with a teacher of meditation - or do what is helpful when you sit yourself. I don't know of any Sutta which goes into anymore detail than you have found yourself. But there is a lot on the internet by teachers well-versed in the Dhamma and experienced in meditation.

Here is something from our Bhikkhu Pesala:

Sitting Meditation
The traditional posture for sitting meditation is that seen in many images of the Buddha — cross-legged with a straight back, the eyes half-closed and the hands resting in the lap. Long experience has shown this to be the most suitable posture. However, you may also meditate sitting on a chair if you support your back and keep it straight. In either case it is important not to change the position frequently, if at all, since every movement will interrupt concentration.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Med ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is not meant to be a gruelling ordeal - so I often use a straight-backed chair, or a kneeling stool.

with metta
Chris
oh yes i've talked to different teachers and gotten postures from books. i got my current method and posture from a combination of what i learned at a temple i go to and from books. i just was curious mainly about what the man said about it. thanks for the help. your description is pretty much what i do already:)

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:23 pm
by end
Euclid wrote:Hi end

In the mahasatipatthana sutta the Buddha specifies:
"There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
That covers the parts of your question regarding your back and your legs. As for your hands etc, I'm not sure if it's ever specified in the suttas, although perhaps your best bet for meditative technique would be Vism. or Vimuttimagga. I haven't read either of those though so I'm just speculating. Perhaps somebody better versed in the nikayas than I will be able to shed some more light :)
cool thank you! i have the digha so i will look it up there. i also have visuddhimagga by buddhaghosa and it does give pretty detailed description, i love it! but i just was wondering about the original teaching out of curiosity mainly.

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:23 pm
by Fede
The other thing members might be interested in looking at, is researching the Alexander Technique.
it's extremely interesting , and really worth a look.

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:41 pm
by rowyourboat
It is important to remember the purpose of the meditation when thinking about how to do it- if it is samatha- then a comfortable (to avoid pain) is recommended, but not too comfortable (..end up falling asleep), if vipassana, any posture which will allow you to remain alert, sometimes using pain as one of the objects of your meditation is good enough. Someone suggested striking a 'kindly' posture- not too tense, when doing metta meditation- seems to work. :smile:

with metta

Matheesha

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:30 am
by mirco
Dhamma Greetings,


eighteen years ago I read a Sutta, where it was explained something like this:

First comes full lotus, then it goes through various crossed legged scenarios,
followed by those with sitting aids (bindings, mini-chairs). At the end full chairs
like they're common in the western world are mentioned for a suitable sitting posture.
The rating descends from the beginning to the end, with each pose being o.k. by itself,
just mentioning, that the foregoing would be better.

So, this is what my memory tells me. I read it in a book during a stay at a monastery
and I'm pretty sure, it was a Sutta, due to the repetitive phrases.
But, I can't find it now. Anyone knows this Sutta?


:-) Regards

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:02 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Euclid wrote:That covers the parts of your question regarding your back and your legs.
In the context of anapanasati, yes.
Satipatthana Sutta wrote:[2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by (i.e. not appropriating) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

[3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by (i.e. not appropriating) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:08 am
by Polar Bear
mirco wrote:Dhamma Greetings,


eighteen years ago I read a Sutta, where it was explained something like this:

First comes full lotus, then it goes through various crossed legged scenarios,
followed by those with sitting aids (bindings, mini-chairs). At the end full chairs
like they're common in the western world are mentioned for a suitable sitting posture.
The rating descends from the beginning to the end, with each pose being o.k. by itself,
just mentioning, that the foregoing would be better.

So, this is what my memory tells me. I read it in a book dureing a stay at a monastery
and I'm pretty sure, it was a Sutta, due to the repetitive phrases.
But, I can't find it now. Anyone knows this Sutta?


:-) Regards
It's definitely not a sutta, but it is a common group of suggestions that one may find in the west where people aren't as used to the floor.

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:45 pm
by mirco
Hi 'polarbuddha',
polarbuddha101 wrote:
mirco wrote:First comes full lotus, then it goes through various crossed legged scenarios, followed by those with sitting aids (bindings, mini-chairs). At the end full chairs like they're common in the western world are mentioned for a suitable sitting posture. The rating descends from the beginning to the end, with each pose being o.k. by itself, just mentioning, that the foregoing would be better.

So, this is what my memory tells me. I read it in a book during a stay at a monastery and I'm pretty sure, it was a Sutta, due to the repetitive phrases. But, I can't find it now. Anyone knows this Sutta?
It's definitely not a sutta, but it is a common group of suggestions that one may find in the west where people aren't as used to the floor.
How do you definitely know for sure it is not a sutta?
Are you a Bhivamsa?

:-) Regards

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:37 am
by fig tree
mirco wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:It's definitely not a sutta, but it is a common group of suggestions that one may find in the west where people aren't as used to the floor.
How do you definitely know for sure it is not a sutta?
Are you a Bhivamsa?

:-) Regards
Sometimes the canon contains surprising things, but in this particularly popular topic, there has been a lot of effort by the real experts to find relevant suttas. Every now and then one encounters a statement to the effect that the satipatthana sutta, the mahasatipatthana sutta, the anapanasati sutta, and perhaps a few others, are all the suttas that say anything about the question the author is considering about how specifically to meditate. If the Buddha had said that half-lotus was way less effective a position than full-lotus (or that it was just as good) and the remark got put into the canon, surely lots of us would have heard about it. That generations of experienced meditators and meditation teachers have helped by experimenting and passing on useful tips addressing details not specified in the canon is a basic fact of Buddhist culture. :-)

Fig Tree

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:31 am
by mirco
Hi 'fig tree',
fig tree wrote:Sometimes the canon contains surprising things, but in this particularly popular topic, there has been a lot of effort by the real experts to find relevant suttas. Every now and then one encounters a statement to the effect that the satipatthana sutta, the mahasatipatthana sutta, the anapanasati sutta, and perhaps a few others, are all the suttas that say anything about the question the author is considering about how specifically to meditate. If the Buddha had said that half-lotus was way less effective a position than full-lotus (or that it was just as good) and the remark got put into the canon, surely lots of us would have heard about it. That generations of experienced meditators and meditation teachers have helped by experimenting and passing on useful tips addressing details not specified in the canon is a basic fact of Buddhist culture. :-)
that sounds a bit more convincing to me. But I still wonder about the sutta-like repetitive style of the phrases, I remember.
Time (or research) will tell...

:-) Regards

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:42 am
by Ben
mirco wrote:But I still wonder about the sutta-like repetitive style of the phrases, I remember.
Time (or research) will tell...

:-) Regards
Its a mnemonic device not limited to the suttas.
No where have I seen anywhere in the nikayas or the ancient commentaries anything that suggests that one posture over another is efficacious for meditation. It sounds like the sort of thing that may have as its provenance one of the east-asian mahayanist schools.

Re: buddha's teaching on posture?

Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:56 am
by mikenz66
Concerning the absence of details on posture in the suttas I think it's important to remember that, in the absence of furniture, some sort of cross-leg or lotus position is simply a practical way of sitting comfortably for a long time. It may well be a modern new-age idea that there is something spiritual about it.

:anjali:
Mike