Meditation to gain enlightenment?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:23 pm

clw_uk wrote:The scriptures are the message of the buddha, his disciples did study his word and reflect on it.

If one cannot get to a teacher then the suttas are extremely helpful to the practise.

:namaste:
They studied his word by putting into practice his word. Scriptural study is outward study. Practice is inward study.

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

Ajahn Chah

See this thread: Practise vs suttra
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ead#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words. It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself. I know this is cliche' but Its the finger not the moon.

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Jechbi
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Jechbi » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:31 pm

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.
The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.
:buddha1:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:32 pm

Jechbi wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.
The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.
:buddha1:
:clap: Good point!

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:06 pm

Some did attain nibbana with ease but the majority needed instruction and help along the way. I dont believe in just reading the suttas over and over i do believe in practice and wisdom comming from within, the right balance needs to be found between both.

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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:09 pm

clw_uk wrote:Some did attain nibbana with ease but the majority needed instruction and help along the way. I dont believe in just reading the suttas over and over i do believe in practice and wisdom comming from within, the right balance needs to be found between both.
The Middle Way. :bow: :bow: :bow:

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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kc2dpt
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by kc2dpt » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:35 pm

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Im not denying the importance of studying the Buddhas words.
It sure sounds like you are. We must be careful not to turn people away from the teachings. Too many would-be-Buddhists hear words like yours, bodum, and think they do not need any instruction at all, that they can figure it all out on their own. This then becomes mere ego play.
It is important but only if you use it as a guide and not take it to be the truth itself.
I don't think anyone here has suggested otherwise.
Jechbi wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Did the Buddhas original disciples study scripture? No, they just practiced and they reached the deathless. Find a good teacher.
The very first five just heard a few words from the Buddha, and bingo, enlightenment.
:buddha1:
So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy. :twothumbsup:

We must be careful with our words. We do not want to turn people away from learning the teachings, nor do we want to turn people away from practice.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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genkaku
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by genkaku » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:57 pm

Sometimes we take pointers from scripture.

Sometimes we take pointers from practice.

The emphasis, I think, should be on the

SOMETIMES

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:29 am

I think if there were one thing that would take us to enlightenment we would be doing it like our hair was on fire.

But as I see it, we pull from different resources and use different tools (so to speak). Many of us sort of spread our efforts around depending on where we're at on the journey :)

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:40 am

genkaku wrote:I was thinking about this today, though from a slightly different angle. Please delete if it's too far off-topic:

Some -- perhaps a lot of -- people walk around imagining quietly, "I am not enlightened." And from there, it's a short step to wishing to be enlightened.

But the thought that crossed my mind was this: In order to know you are not enlightened, you would, of necessity, need to know what enlightenment was. And if you actually did know what enlightenment was, would it honestly be enlightenment?
Books and descriptions and angels on the head of a pin cannot adequately capture the meaning of enlightenment so ... how could anyone truthfully say they were unenlightened?

Brain teasers like this encourage me ... don't fret; just practice. :)
Hi genkaku,

I would be happy to encourage you until I'm blue in the face :heart: But have to poke at your comment a little.

I don't think we need to have experienced enlightenment to know that we're not enlightened. If we go by the standards and definition the Budddha laid out, most of us are just ordinary. And according to most traditions, enlightened beings do know they're enlightened.

That said, if we're wise enough to recognize even some of our unenlightened and afflicted thoughts and actions we might be making progress. And we're perpetuating them less after getting off the cushion then all the better!

Best,
Drolma

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Jechbi
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Jechbi » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:30 am

Peter wrote:... according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary.
I would never say that. As I said earlier, you need eight spokes to support the wheel.
:namaste:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:56 pm

Thank you for proving my point peter. Practice equanimity, dont just read about it. Your not gonna find it on the bookshelf. Practice it right here for instance, and when you find you disagree with what others have said you will find no need to be sarcastic.
Peter wrote:So according to bodum, study is unnecessary and according to Jechbi practice is also unnecessary. How lucky we are that awakening can come so easy. :twothumbsup:
:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:41 pm

Remember you don't meditate to "get" anything, but to get "rid" of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you "want" anything, you won't find it. - Ajahn Chah

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

Element

Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:10 pm

lppaefans wrote:...will mainly conducting mediation alone can leads one to enlightment?
In Buddhism, it is taught there are many paths to enlightenment, not only meditation.

Possibly someone knows the source of this teaching.

Meditation, recitation, teaching, hearing, discussing, reading and others can lead to enlightenment.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by Ceisiwr » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:33 pm

Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.



This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

:namaste:

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bodom
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Re: Meditation to gain enlightenment?

Post by bodom » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:Meditation isnt all there is. There was a story I read once that I think relates to this discussion.

There was a monk who, after hearing the dhamma from the buddha, went into the forest to practice attaing the jhanas. He spent a great deal of time trying to attain the jhanas but not matter how hard and long he practised he could not attain the jhanas. Then one day he decided to have a break and went to the river to wash. While he was there he seen a bubble in the water burst and contemplated his being as akin to the bubble bursting and at that moment he became englightened.



This is from my memory as i cant remember where i read it but this was generaly how the story went.

:namaste:
He was still being mindful though. Mindfulness is meditation. Meditation is not only sitting in jhana.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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