Vipassana only after jhana?

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Stiphan
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Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Stiphan » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:27 am

Does the meditator following the vehicle of serenity start practicing Vipassana only after he has attained the jhanas?
You can call me "Stiphan" (correct spelling: Sṭīphan) or Stephen. May you be well and happy. :heart:

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Ben » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:29 am

Hi Stefan,
What source are you using?
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Stiphan
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Stiphan » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:33 am

None. It's a spontaneously arisen question.
You can call me "Stiphan" (correct spelling: Sṭīphan) or Stephen. May you be well and happy. :heart:

PeterB
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by PeterB » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:36 am

In short Stefan ..no. Although on reflection what do you mean precisely by "the vehicle of serenity " ?

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Ben
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Ben » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:52 am

Hi Stefan
Here's something you might find interesting...
Guide to §29

The Pali Buddhist tradition recognizes two different approaches to the development of insight. One approach, called the vehicle of calm, (samathayana), involves the prior development of calm meditation to the level of access concentration or absorption concentration as a basis for developing insight. One who adopts this approach, the samathayanika meditator, first attains access concentration or one of the fine-material or immaterial-sphere jhanas. Then he turns to the development of insight by defining the mental and physical phenomena occuring in the jhana as mentality-materiality and seeking their conditions (See §30-31), after which he contemplates these factors in terms of the three characteristics (See §32). For this meditator, his prior attainment of access or absorption concentration is reckoned as his purification of mind.
The other approach, called the vehicle of pure insight (suddhavipassanayana), does not employ the development of calm as a foundation for developing insight. Instead the meditator, after purifying his morality, enters directly into the mindful contemplation of the changing mental and material processes in his own experience. As this contemplation gains in strength and precision, the mind becomes naturally concentrated upon the ever-changing stream of experience with a degree of concentration equal to that of access concentration. This moment-by-moment fixing of the mind on the material and mental processes in their present immediacy is known as momentary concentration (khanikasamadhi). Because it involves a degree of mental stabilisation equal to that of access concentration, this momentary concentration is reckoned as purification of mind for the vipassanayanika meditator, the meditator who adopts the vehicle of pure inisght. Such a meditator is also called a "dry insight worker" (sukkhavipassaka) because he develops insight without the "moisture" of the jhanas[4]

4: For a fuller discussion of the differences between the samathayana and vipassanayana approaches, see Gunaratana, The Jhanas, pp 51-55

-- Ch IX, compendium of meditation subjects, A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma, Bhikkhu Bodhi
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Brizzy » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:01 am

Stefan wrote:Does the meditator following the vehicle of serenity start practicing Vipassana only after he has attained the jhanas?
Yes

and no :thinking:

To attain jhana in the Buddhas discipline(according to the suttas) one would be simultaneously developing wisdom(you can't develop the Buddhas jhana without letting go of craving to a certain degree). I suppose that if the meditator had not developed wisdom to a sufficient degree by the time they attain jhana, then they would devote more effort in that direction.

:smile:

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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by puthujjana » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:19 pm

Ben already gave a great quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma".

However, I think that in actual practice it's more useful to use any kind of samadhi that one is able to achieve for the development of insight. As Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw said:
Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:Jhana-samadhi is indeed the best to attain, but failing that, one should acquire momentary concentration (khanika samadhi), which is equivalent to access-concentration.
_________
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... centration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Reductor
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Reductor » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:17 pm

Stefan wrote:Does the meditator following the vehicle of serenity start practicing Vipassana only after he has attained the jhanas?
I think that's the way to go, Stefan. I developed Jhana first, and as Brizzy said, that required a good deal of wisdom, and required the development of skill in cause and effect. But I think it is helpful to think of the process as not 'jhana attainment' but as 'mind adjustment', where the result is the abandoning of the hindrances so that the mind is solid and stable and bright.

The results should be the same.

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bodom
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by bodom » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:28 pm

"It is possible to begin straightaway with insight meditation without having previously developed full concentration in jhana" (Mahasi Sayadaw, Practical Insight Meditation, Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1971, p. 58).

In Practical Insight Meditation, Mahasi Sayadaw remarks: "The Majjhima Nikaya commentary states… ‘Herein, some persons contemplate on the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent and so on without having previously developed tranquility... [i.e., jhana, or a lower level of absorption called "access concentration."] This contemplation is insight meditation’" (p. 59).

Is Jhana Necessary?
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


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well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

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PeterB
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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by PeterB » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:57 pm

bodom wrote:"It is possible to begin straightaway with insight meditation without having previously developed full concentration in jhana" (Mahasi Sayadaw, Practical Insight Meditation, Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1971, p. 58).

In Practical Insight Meditation, Mahasi Sayadaw remarks: "The Majjhima Nikaya commentary states… ‘Herein, some persons contemplate on the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent and so on without having previously developed tranquility... [i.e., jhana, or a lower level of absorption called "access concentration."] This contemplation is insight meditation’" (p. 59).

Is Jhana Necessary?
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Thats precisely what I was taught.
One of my teachers went further and advised against attempting to cultivate the Jhanas at all.
I think it is the kind of issue which if passes beyond the theoretical, is best talked through with an experienced teacher.

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Re: Vipassana only after jhana?

Post by Ben » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:39 pm

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I think it is the kind of issue which if passes beyond the theoretical, is best talked through with an experienced teacher.
I couldn't agree more.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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