Meditation and safety

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Meezer77
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by Meezer77 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:15 am It's hardly any point in involving an ordinary health professional when going into psychosis. That's because they can do more harm than good by trying to stop a natural process with chemicals. I would feel safer being taken care of by a monk/nun, or a good friend.


You reckon? The brain is an organ just like the heart is. If someone had a heart attack on retreat you would hope that an ambulance would be called and the person would get medical care. When something in the brain goes wrong medical help is required.
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mikenz66
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by mikenz66 »

Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:28 am Was watching this video of one of Ajahn Sujato’s retreats. At 15.00 he talks about how feeling you are going crazy on retreat is not that uncommon and that it’s not unknown to have a psychotic episode. He seems rather nonchalant about it and says if it happens then to speak to the teacher and they can help. How? I had a psychotic episode last year and needed to take anti psychotics to get better. If a person has a psychotic episode on retreat then they will need a doctor, not a monk as it takes a few months and medication to recover from it. I think organisations who organise retreats need to take the safety issue a bit more seriously. Isn’t it a Buddhist principle not to harm beings?
You may be over interpreting what he is saying. I don't think he's talking about the sort of serious psychotic episode that needs specialised help. I'm sure he'd call on specialised help in such a case.

He seems to me to be talking about how meditation can be unsettling if it really is deepening your understanding. That has the possibility of being very confusing and sometimes difficult. I don't know Ajahn Sujato, apart from online, but in general I would trust experienced teachers that I do know to be able to help students though that sort of problem.

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Mike
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by Crazy cloud »

Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:32 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:15 am It's hardly any point in involving an ordinary health professional when going into psychosis. That's because they can do more harm than good by trying to stop a natural process with chemicals. I would feel safer being taken care of by a monk/nun, or a good friend.


You reckon? The brain is an organ just like the heart is. If someone had a heart attack on retreat you would hope that an ambulance would be called and the person would get medical care. When something in the brain goes wrong medical help is required.
I speak from my own experiences where I was molested by professional health care. There is nothing wrong with my brain, and I can actually document it. The heart is another and easier organ to take care of.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Meezer77
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Location: Scotland

Re: Meditation and safety

Post by Meezer77 »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:39 am
Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:28 am Was watching this video of one of Ajahn Sujato’s retreats. At 15.00 he talks about how feeling you are going crazy on retreat is not that uncommon and that it’s not unknown to have a psychotic episode. He seems rather nonchalant about it and says if it happens then to speak to the teacher and they can help. How? I had a psychotic episode last year and needed to take anti psychotics to get better. If a person has a psychotic episode on retreat then they will need a doctor, not a monk as it takes a few months and medication to recover from it. I think organisations who organise retreats need to take the safety issue a bit more seriously. Isn’t it a Buddhist principle not to harm beings?

You may be over interpreting what he is saying. I don't think he's talking about the sort of serious psychotic episode that needs specialised help. I'm sure he'd call on specialised help in such a case.

He seems to me to be talking about how meditation can be unsettling if it really is deepening your understanding. That has the possibility of being very confusing and sometimes difficult. I don't know Ajahn Sujato, apart from online, but in general I would trust experienced teachers that I do know to be able to help students though that sort of problem.

:heart:
Mike

Sorry, he does actually say that people felt they were going crazy and said that psychosis is not unknown. There is risk here. Also, more care should be taken to cover backs as potentially someone could sue for being “damaged”
Meezer77
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Location: Scotland

Re: Meditation and safety

Post by Meezer77 »

Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:50 am
Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:32 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:15 am It's hardly any point in involving an ordinary health professional when going into psychosis. That's because they can do more harm than good by trying to stop a natural process with chemicals. I would feel safer being taken care of by a monk/nun, or a good friend.


You reckon? The brain is an organ just like the heart is. If someone had a heart attack on retreat you would hope that an ambulance would be called and the person would get medical care. When something in the brain goes wrong medical help is required.
I speak from my own experiences where I was molested by professional health care. There is nothing wrong with my brain, and I can actually document it. The heart is another and easier organ to take care of.
I wasn’t saying that there was anything wrong with your brain and I’m sorry you were molested. I’m not quite sure what your point is though as the post wasn’t directed at you personally, and what you’ve said seems irrelevant to the topic.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by Crazy cloud »

Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:24 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:50 am
Meezer77 wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:32 am


You reckon? The brain is an organ just like the heart is. If someone had a heart attack on retreat you would hope that an ambulance would be called and the person would get medical care. When something in the brain goes wrong medical help is required.
I speak from my own experiences where I was molested by professional health care. There is nothing wrong with my brain, and I can document it. The heart is another and easier organ to take care of.
I wasn’t saying that there was anything wrong with your brain and I’m sorry you were molested. I’m not quite sure what your point is though as the post wasn’t directed at you personally, and what you’ve said seems irrelevant to the topic.
This tread is about meditation and safety. So to meditate in an environment where one is in the company of skilled people, like a monk or a nun, is far better than to experiment for oneself if one is getting into some trouble that might overcome one's sanity and safety. And you insisted that being taken care of by the above-mentioned people would be worse than letting so-called professionals do the job. I disagree based on my own experience. Health care might do some help with mind and body, but problems in meditation need knowledge about treating body, mind, and soul, holistically. So I don't think this is irrelevant.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by MettaDevPrac »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:09 am There's nothing to be scared of except fear itself. You're panicking about possibe panic.
I think ths offers opportunity for further examination.

Why might one fear panic? Is it fear of an (imperanent) experience? Is it fear of damage to appearance or reputation? Is it fear of loss of (illusions of) control? Is it fear based on previous experiences, fear of previous habits?
- MettaDevPrac
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by JamesTheGiant »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:54 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:09 am There's nothing to be scared of except fear itself. You're panicking about possibe panic.
I think ths offers opportunity for further examination.
To be honest, I now disagree with my statement that there's nothing to fear but fear itself. Meditation can certainly trigger mental problems, if done wrongly.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Meditation and safety

Post by MettaDevPrac »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:03 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:54 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:09 am There's nothing to be scared of except fear itself. You're panicking about possibe panic.
I think ths offers opportunity for further examination.
To be honest, I now disagree with my statement that there's nothing to fear but fear itself. Meditation can certainly trigger mental problems, if done wrongly.
Agree, actually. And meditation courses certainly can be run poorly, too, and can be run by some with mental health problems.

:namaste:
- MettaDevPrac
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