Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Aloka
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Aloka »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm

Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there.....
I don't know about that, I'm not a meditation teacher. However, if you can find a quiet place to sit, (in the open air is good)... and just relax, ....relax completely.. and gently let go of conceptual thoughts, you might feel more at peace.



:)

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

My dear SteRo; for now I will respond briefly to some things you raise.
You wrote
At least the capacity to attain all eight jhanas because MN 121 describes attainment of the signless via going up through the jhanas.
What makes you think the capacity to Attain "so called Arupa samapatthi" that has been tucked into the canon, is a higher achievement? Is not Mahayana free of dualities, which is really not the point I am trying to get at. SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
You say objectless meditation is standard practice for you, and your friends,
No I said:
it's standard meditation in some schools of Mahayana
Alright so it goes, who cares? many Mahayana schools also believe that they will hang out, until the last sentient being has exited.
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
but I've read you tell others how you practice the so called Arupas.
i have never told others how I practice "the so called Arupas" and I don't practice "the so called Arupas".
So if you have not practiced these things, are you qualified to compare and contrast these meditative practices?
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
Is this how Mahayanists practice objectless meditation?
As said the Mahayana has many schools and some of them practice objectless meditation routinely.
If they practice MN 121 as presented in the canon, and think it is objectless meditation, are they not mistaken?
SteRo wrote
I am not a partisan, I don't think the way you are thinking like 'we' and they'. I don't follow any particular tradition
How do you know the way 'I' think? Can you read other people's minds? I am merely using conventional speech here to communicate, I am neither attached to Mahayana nor Theravada.
What is Mahayana by the way? Mahayanists assimilated Nagarjuna's Madhyamika, as if Nagarjuna invented it, but Nagarjuna was not Mahayana, and he was only talking of the frigging Middle path in hifalutin words.
The Tibetan mahayanists adopted Vasubandu big time, but Vasubandu did not originate from Mahayana. If you investigate his writings impartially, he is more like Sautrantika. But someone ended up burning most of the Sautarntika writings, who knows? Was it the Muslim invaders or the blooming Mahayanists, to hide the tell tale marks, of their origins?
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
that may be so, but some of the answers you give to the questions asked in some of the threads, prove to me that you you too know nothing at all.
I can only speak from experience.
You only speak from experience? Now, are you not contradicting your self right here? in this very same comment you referred to MN 121 as more difficult, and that Theravadins cannot handle it. Yet you have no experience in the matter. Why talk of things that you have no experience in?
SteRo wrote at the end
You might be underestimating the role of the attitude one goes about meditation.
Pl tell the folks at DW what the right attitude is, so we may all benefit.
With love :candle:

SteRo
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SteRo »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:58 pm
My dear SteRo; for now I will respond briefly to some things you raise.
You wrote
At least the capacity to attain all eight jhanas because MN 121 describes attainment of the signless via going up through the jhanas.
What makes you think the capacity to Attain "so called Arupa samapatthi" that has been tucked into the canon, is a higher achievement?
I have never called that "higher achievement".
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:58 pm
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
but I've read you tell others how you practice the so called Arupas.
i have never told others how I practice "the so called Arupas" and I don't practice "the so called Arupas".
So if you have not practiced these things, are you qualified to compare and contrast these meditative practices?
I have compared and contrasted these meditative practices in terms of way of approach. What I have said is that the Theravada has practices that are indirect or "more complicated" compared to Mahayana practices since in the Theravada the signless awareness is approached via the arupa jhanas whereas the Mahayana has methods to enter signless awareness directly.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:58 pm
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
Is this how Mahayanists practice objectless meditation?
As said the Mahayana has many schools and some of them practice objectless meditation routinely.
If they practice MN 121 as presented in the canon, and think it is objectless meditation, are they not mistaken?
No they don't practice along the lines of MN121 since they have other direct methods.
Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:58 pm
SteRo wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:55 am
that may be so, but some of the answers you give to the questions asked in some of the threads, prove to me that you you too know nothing at all.
I can only speak from experience.
You only speak from experience? Now, are you not contradicting your self right here? in this very same comment you referred to MN 121 as more difficult, and that Theravadins cannot handle it. Yet you have no experience in the matter. Why talk of things that you have no experience in?
Since I have experienced direct methods I can tell that the discription of MN 121 is not a direct method.

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Nicolas
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Nicolas »

There is also this, on suññatā cetovimutti:
Mahāvedalla Sutta (MN 43) wrote: And what is the emptiness awareness-release? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: ‘This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.’ This is called the emptiness awareness-release.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

Dear OP, I have not forgotten you. I know you asked for step by step instructions at the beginning. Unfortunately there is no step by step instruction in the canon. Buddha has different sets of instructions on meditation in different places in the canon. The reason surely must be based on the audience he was addressing.
The wise thing to do is familiarize yourself with the different ways and see what suits you best.
When it comes to the Four establishments of Mindfulness, to understand it, one has to do a lot of digging.
I hope you read my comment before last comment about this, in my "Jhana misconceptions thread" esp Ven Sujato's comment.
I have spoken about the right way of meditating on Four references in the last month or so on the Jhana thread.
So I find no reason to repeat. As for general meditation, think of the instructions Buddha gave to the old monk Malunkyaputta when he asked
for a brief instruction on meditation
Buddha did not speak of Four References, neither of Four Buddhist jhanas.
He merely said In the seen is the heard, in the heard is the heard, in the thought is the thought, in the cognized is the cognized, disconnect yourself from these happenings. Once you are disconnected, you are neither here, nor there, not in the in between
Isn't this amazing? what a Founder, what a teacher? where do you find teachers like this?
only in a Buddha.
Yesterday I was walking in the woods, my dog by my side, the sun was out, dropping reflections of the
bare woods. In this season, most of the trees are bare. It was calming. I was walking, there was the seen, there was the heard (some rustling), there was the thought, there was the cognized, the bare awareness, but "I" was not there,
yet I was able to walk, in that bare cognition.

See the power of the Dhamma, one does not have to sit to meditate. Besides sometimes when I sit to
mediatate, my thoughts are scattered all over like wild horses running in all directions. So I start sweeping the kitchen floor, and that helps to gather my thought.
There is a time for everything. Choose your time well.
Stay well my dear Confusedlaymen, for you are less confused than so many :candle:

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

SteRo wrote regarding MN 121
I have never called that "higher achievement".
If so, I misunderstood you.
SteRo wrote
I have compared and contrasted these meditative practices in terms of way of approach. What I have said is that the Theravada has practices that are indirect or "more complicated" compared to Mahayana practices since in the Theravada the signless awareness is approached via the arupa jhanas whereas the Mahayana has methods to enter signless awareness directly.
I would not go into everything you say. But even without experience, you appear to be an expert on this stuff. I will only benefit from your explanation.
Pl explain these "some complicated Theravada practices?" Why do you say Signless is approached via Arupa Jhanas? I am not Mahayana, am I Theravada?
I only need one concise sutta to understand the 4 jhanas, which I mentioned at the beginning of the thread here. i.e. "Sandha Sutta"
MN 43 and MN 44 are lately crafted, I do not follow the advice given there, and these suttas are not limited to Theravada. They were manufactured before the sectarianism.

Pl give me one example of the
wonderful and glorious and the most direct method of Mahayana meditation?
or is that a secret? like in the tantric scheme of Mahayana?

You replied quickly, but you did not tell me what I was most longing for.
"The right attitude to go about in meditation"
Pl tell me, this is the second request. when asked a third time, even a Buddha gives an answer.
With love :candle:

pegembara
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by pegembara »

The Middle Way is the right way. To realize emptiness and yet hold the conventions of the world at the same time. And yes, there is a time for everything. When to let go and when to hold on is equally important. Finding the balance is key. Wisdom with compassion.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

Pegembara wrote
The Middle Way is the right way. To realize emptiness and yet hold the conventions of the world at the same time. And yes, there is a time for everything. When to let go and when to hold on is equally important. Finding the balance is key. Wisdom with compassionote
Thank you for the words of wisdom, stated concisely, all the truths of the doctrine are enclosed
within your words. Who says Theravadins have complicated and indirect methods of meditation? Middle Way that Buddha proclaimed to the five monks at the beginning of his dispensation,
perhaps advice to Kaccayana Gotta explains it better than the original sutta to the monks. In that episode
Buddha is reported to have taught the monks over several days, non-stop, some went to gather
alms and bring alms for others, while the teacher continued teaching. Obviously Buddha spoke of much more
than the sutta reports. A two page sutta hardly does justice to that teaching, any intelligent person
can see that Buddha must have taught a whole lot more than the said sutta reports, and Kaccayana Gotta would fill
in one of the blanks....
which our dear non-mahayana Nagarjuna elaborated upon.
Dear Pegembara thank you bringing compassion in to the thread. We must all remember the the practice of Four Brahma
Viharas are primary even before we think of 4 buddhist jhanas.
Several times the canon says these act as a ladder to the Jhanas that fetch wisdom.
Leave aside the 4 buddhist jhanas, think of how hard it is to practice Brahma viharas towards a family
member, right after a big family drama, or let me say psychodrama; or even the leaders
that rule our world non-benevolently. Practicing the teaching is not easy, Only the patient and the wise
can.
Thank you Pegembara. With love :candle:

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by salayatananirodha »

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

auto
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:33 pm
I have spoken about the right way of meditating on Four references in the last month or so on the Jhana thread.
So I find no reason to repeat. As for general meditation, think of the instructions Buddha gave to the old monk Malunkyaputta when he asked
for a brief instruction on meditation
Buddha did not speak of Four References, neither of Four Buddhist jhanas.
He merely said In the seen is the heard, in the heard is the heard, in the thought is the thought, in the cognized is the cognized, disconnect yourself from these happenings. Once you are disconnected, you are neither here, nor there, not in the in between
Isn't this amazing? what a Founder, what a teacher? where do you find teachers like this?
only in a Buddha.
Yesterday I was walking in the woods, my dog by my side, the sun was out, dropping reflections of the
bare woods. In this season, most of the trees are bare. It was calming. I was walking, there was the seen, there was the heard (some rustling), there was the thought, there was the cognized, the bare awareness, but "I" was not there,
yet I was able to walk, in that bare cognition.
At that moment the consciousness(what arises dependent on sense organ and its object) knows has ceased. And that is attainment of nibbana. I wonder if anyone who has come aware, even Jim Carrey have attained nibbana.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
even Jim Carrey have attained nibbana

Pl congratulate Mr. Carrey for me, whoever he is.

We are fortunate to have you around us, nothing like the observations of a Hindu, to spur the Buddhist
on the right path.
It is almost ironic, is it not? The service of the Hindu to the Buddhist. First he steals the teaching, then burns the temples in Buddha's birth land, wipes out scriptures from the birth land. The faithful buddhist monks have to sneak scripture out to Tibet, China, Sri Lanka etc. But there were a few in India who appreciated Buddha then, as now.
There was an Indian Prime minister called Mr. Nehru, (if you happen to read History books) who was imprisoned for his outspokenness.
Do you know what hung in his prison cell? a picture of Buddha. He said that the Gotama Buddha was the best thing that happened to India. Do you think so too, my dear Auto?
With love :candle:

auto
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:51 pm
We are fortunate to have you around us
yes

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