Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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confusedlayman
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Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by confusedlayman »

Hey guys

Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there without leading to fall on object?

Can so,some provide the instruction or link here? If I perceive impermanence of anything that’s comes in mind, then awareness stops caring/perceiving what comes what goes, it leads to brightened awareness that stands like that without interacting with anything finally object itself vanish from awareness .. but I need correct instruction and what benefits it offer other than peace and how can I destroy that awareness itself?
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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DooDoot
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there without leading to fall on object?
Does not exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
then awareness stops caring/perceiving
Perceiving does not stop in vipassana meditation (required for enlightenment) nor up to the 7th jhana. "Caring" is not "perceiving" & "perceiving" does not mean "caring". "Caring" is "craving" & "attachment".
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
it leads to brightened awareness that stands like that without interacting with anything finally object itself vanish from awareness ..
Does not exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
but I need correct instruction and what benefits it offer other than peace and how can I destroy that awareness itself?
Does not exist in Theravada.

Sounds like you have been reading too much Mahayana. The spelling in Theravada is "sunnata" rather than "shunyata".

Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SarathW »

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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confusedlayman
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:48 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there without leading to fall on object?
Does not exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
then awareness stops caring/perceiving
Perceiving does not stop in vipassana meditation (required for enlightenment) nor up to the 7th jhana. "Caring" is not "perceiving" & "perceiving" does not mean "caring". "Caring" is "craving" & "attachment".
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
it leads to brightened awareness that stands like that without interacting with anything finally object itself vanish from awareness ..
Does not exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
but I need correct instruction and what benefits it offer other than peace and how can I destroy that awareness itself?
Does not exist in Theravada.

Sounds like you have been reading too much Mahayana. The spelling in Theravada is "sunnata" rather than "shunyata".

Regards :smile:
Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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DooDoot
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:12 am
Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Unlikely if it is believed there is a state of conscious non-perception. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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confusedlayman
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by confusedlayman »

Thanks
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Aloka
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Aloka »

confusedlayman wrote:Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Its not a good idea for a beginner to try and mix Mahayana and Theravada practices, because unfortunately you'll probably just end up getting even more confused.


.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

dear Confusedlayman, I am blown away by your query. I know you are just graduating from college,
but you are so on track, in your understanding, that Samma sati and Samma samadhi involve
objectless meditation
This is where even Aanalayo has gone wrong in thinking that Samma sati
involves objects.
So in your understating of correct concentration MN117, you are one step ahead of Analayo.
You seem to understand that if the consciousness is resting on an object, then it cannot be released.
So true, it is trapped by that object, but so few are able to see
this.
It took me a long time, to figure this out. You are just out of college and you
already know this.
You were looking for
Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there without leading to fall on object?

Can so,some provide the instruction or link here? If I perceive impermanence of anything that’s comes in mind, then awareness stops caring/perceiving what comes what goes, it leads to brightened awareness that stands like that without interacting with anything finally object itself vanish from awareness .. but I need correct instruction and what benefits it offer other than peace and how can I destroy that awareness itself?
Destruction of object from awareness happens in Samma Sati, in the 4 buddhist jhanas, or like in the instructions to Bahia.
I do not subscribe to the school that there is 8 buddhist jhanas, but at this point it is a detail. We must not argue about this.
If you can achieve (lose the object), within the first four jhanas, why worry about beyond
that.
You are quite right in thinking that the 37 factors of awakening is common to both Mahayana and
Theravada.
There is absolutely no difference here when correctly understood.
Some things we call Mahayana such as the writings of Vasubandu, his instructions on meditation,
are mainstream buddhism according to Rupert Gethin, the famous Theravadin scholar.
So ignore the naysayers. Only difference is in the language used occasionally, it is derived
from Sanskrit not Pali. But for someone as young as you are that is a minor obstacle, i.e.
learning the terms in Sanskrit.
Have you read Vasubandhu's Trimsika? Pl read it as mainstream buddhism, you will stand to gain much.
It will take me a chunk of time to answer all your questions, so I stop here.
With love
Pulsar :candle:

SteRo
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:12 am
Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Not at all.

However there are so many Mahayana schools that it cannot be categorically excluded that there is match by accident in terms of this or that meditation. And Mahayana followers may perform Theravada style meditation due to misunderstanding the instruction and vice versa.

So "Not at all." actually means "Everything is possible"

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

SteRo wrote
confusedlayman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:12 am
Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Not at all.
Not according to Vasubandu, In the Trimsika he still talks of the Arahant. In both
traditions, is it not the final goal? end of suffering? at least that is how the Founder
presented it, unless some Mahayana Schools tampered with Buddha's teaching.
:candle:

SteRo
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SteRo »

Pulsar wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:19 pm
SteRo wrote
confusedlayman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:12 am
Aren’t they same both Mahayana and Theravada? I mean fruits of meditation
Not at all.
Not according to Vasubandu, In the Trimsika he still talks of the Arahant. In both
traditions, is it not the final goal? end of suffering?
What Vasubandu wrote is neither necessarily sravaka perspective nor necessarily Mahayana perspective since he changed lineage in his life but it is definitely not Theravada perspective.
And no, according to doctrines the final goals of Theravada and Mahayana are not the same.
Pulsar wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:19 pm
at least that is how the Founder presented it, unless some Mahayana Schools tampered with Buddha's teaching.
:candle:
What the Founder presented is either the writing of monks, 'the Elders', or the writing of bodhisattvas who might have been monks, too. I am not the one to assess the authenticity of their writings because I am a practitioner and observe the results of practice.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

SteRo wrote
What Vasubandu wrote is neither necessarily sravaka perspective nor necessarily Mahayana perspective since he changed lineage in his life but it is definitely not Theravada perspective.
And no, according to doctrines the final goals of Theravada and Mahayana are not the same.
I think when I replied to OP, I also wrote that Vasubandu
was considered mainstream buddhist by Rupert Gethin. I have read his Abhidhamma Kosa based on Sarvastivadin abhidhmma, but Vasu points out where he disagrees, he agrees more with
Sautrantikas.
I really do not see that much difference between early Theravadin
and Sautrantikas. The topic is on meditation, and right concentration for that matter, not
meditations that involve objects. I pointed
out to OP, that if he read Trimsika it will confirm that Vasu also refers to objectless
meditation. I was impressed that OP as young as he/she is, had figured this out
on his own.
When I read Trimsika I did not get the impression that he was advising folks to
meditate in such a way, that they would be the last to exit samsara, that being the
Bodhisatta goal. That belief (if all Mahayanists believe it) totally defeats
the purpose.
I used Mahayana in a limited context, if Vasu is not labelled Mahayana then I was short sighted,
his writings on meditation are amazing.

SteRo also wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:19 pm
at least that is how the Founder presented it, unless some Mahayana Schools tampered with Buddha's teaching.
:candle:
What the Founder presented is either the writing of monks, 'the Elders', or the writing of final goals of Theravada and Mahayana are not the same, too. I am not the one to assess the authenticity of their writings because I am a practitioner and observe the results of practice.
If you are really a practitioner, why can't you check on the authenticity of the
writings. Isn't that what Buddha said on his death bed, before finally attaining Parinibbana. "Meditate monks
meditate, do not waste a single moment"
It is only via meditation that one can determine which parts of the canon are true and which have
been sandwiched in, due to Vedic influences.
Can you pl. clarify to me what Bodhisattva goal is? I have this hazy idea in my head
that it is where a person wants to hang out in samsara until it is deserted, but I surely must be wrong,
because that is impractical.
Besides folks with such ambition, must cling very hard to the notion,
"I am the hero who will save all mankind"

the highest conceit one can have. Buddha advised against the notion of a "Self" or such
"conceit".
Vasu in Sandirinirmochana sutta, sorry for the spelling, I can never get it right, insists several
times that there is only one vehicle. Now why did he do that? I think it is because he knew
how to meditate. If one meditates one realizes that there is no person here, if there is no person
here, is the bodhisattva character an illusion?
a solace to the Mahayanist who clings to that illusion and thinks he/she is superior to the Theravadin. Besides if there is no person, can there be a Theravadin or Mahayanist?
This is all very tricky.
In mainstream buddhism not even the Sotapanna is stuck on this view. He/she has given up self-view.
Be well dear SteRo :candle:

SteRo
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SteRo »

Pulsar wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:15 am
...
Sorry but your post is off topic. The OP is clearly asking about Theravada meditation. It is the "General Theravada Meditation" forum. It is only because confusedlayman is confused that he gets even further confused by inappropriate replies.

Pulsar
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Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by Pulsar »

SteRo wrote
Sorry but your post is off topic. The OP is clearly asking about Theravada meditation. It is the "General Theravada Meditation" forum. It is only because confusedlayman is confused that he gets even further confused by inappropriate replies.
Thank you for pointing out the 'Off-Topic nature" of the exchange, I agree with you here, but it requires two people to engage in such activity.
I apologize to the OP in this matter. However I do not agree with your statement that the OP is confused. He is less confused than most, he has understood "objectless meditation", many stumble here, asking "How can one meditate without an object?"
I have a great deal of admiration for Confusedlayman. Come to think of it, he/she had the insight to perceive
his/her condition as "Confused". How many of us are willing to do that? You on the other hand are trying to trip that good effort. Be well! :candle:

SteRo
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Emptiness or shunyata meditation instruction

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Hey guys

Step by step emptiness meditation instruction that leads to awareness just there without leading to fall on object?

Can so,some provide the instruction or link here? If I perceive impermanence of anything that’s comes in mind, then awareness stops caring/perceiving what comes what goes, it leads to brightened awareness that stands like that without interacting with anything finally object itself vanish from awareness .. but I need correct instruction and what benefits it offer other than peace and how can I destroy that awareness itself?
What you are asking for is here Cula-suññata Sutta mentioned under "Theme-Less Concentration" a title chosen by Thanissaro which might be misleading for some, as seen in other threads.

Or in Pañcala Sutta which ATI links directly under MN121.

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