He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

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ToVincent
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He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:37 pm

A possibility.

In the case of the verbs assasanto & passasanto, the Sanskrit considers dīgha (दीर्घ dīrgha) and rassa (ह्रस्व hrasva [hras-va]), as adverbs - whose translation is far (lofty) & close (low) - and not long & short (as adjective).


Another possibility:
In Anapanasati, Paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā means also:
"Intending towards the beginning, and having looked after the obtention (sati).
https://justpaste.it/4sil5
(see sati & sati : https://justpaste.it/53vyj)
Here the" beginning" means that one should turn his/her mano towards the origin (yoniso manasi-kara).
The origin being where the dhamma "breath" originates. That is to say in the arupa-loka - that is in Nāmarūpa nidāna (as a dhamma). Where the (first) coactions (saṅkhārā) of dhammas take place.
(The arrow #2 https://justpaste.it/1n1ii down & up)

Then,
Ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi.
Whose proper translation is:
Internally, he fetches distinctively the noticeable body (in this case: breath), from the bodies,
becomes a clearer possibility.


Finally, the MN 10's extract might make much more sense:
"In this way he abides fetching distinctively the noticeable body from the bodies internally, or he abides fetching distinctively the noticeable body from the bodies externally, or he abides fetching distinctively the noticeable body from the bodies both internally and externally".

‘There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape from this whole field of perception.’
MN 7

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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:28 am

From what has been said above, I am just adding these two links:
- One about how to breathe in Ānāpānasati, from this new perspective:
https://justpaste.it/7296c
Having folded one's legs crosswise, and straightened one's body.

Secluded from sensual pleasures (vivicceva kāmehi) and secluded from unproper states (vivicca akusalehi dhammehi).

One intends towards the beginning [viz. one should turn his/her mano towards the origin (yoniso manasi-kara).
The origin being where the dhamma "breath" originates. That is to say in the arupa-loka - that is in nāmarūpa nidāna)], and having looked after the obtention (sati) [of Citta], just mindful (viz. thinking upon the breath).

One breathes (quite heavily) in, towards the far/lofty (viz. the nāmarūpa nidāna - the arūpa loka), mindful - & one breathes (quite heavily) out, away from the "far/lofty", mindful.

Then, one breathes (quite heavily) in, towards the "close/low" (viz. the saḷāyatana nidāna - the rūpa loka), mindful - & one breathes (quite heavily) out, away from the "close/low" (viz. the saḷāyatana nidāna - the rūpa loka).

It is only in this way, that one can have:

1. an accurate knowledge of the entire body (sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī) in step three of Ānāpānasati).

2. and an accurate knowledge of pīti (pītipaṭisaṃvedī) [the mano-like pleasure], & an accurate knowledge of sukha (sukhapaṭisaṃvedī) [the citta-like pleasure] (SN 35.97), in the following fifth and sixth step of Ānāpānasati.
Note on the side how Sujato has simply taken out dirgha and rassa from his translation.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato

If Assāsa-Passāsa (āśvas [ā-śvas] - prāśvas [prā-śvas]) denotes already a heavy breath, as shown in the notes in the post above (śvas = to breathe heavily) - then where is the translation of dirgha and rassa in his very misleading translation of SN 54.13 ?

Bodhi's translation is already poor lexicographically wise; and quite confusing - But Sujato's translation is definitely dirt poor and hapless.
Sujato is just taking out entire words and important notions from the suttas. And this is not the only case.

Sad, unfaithfull and totally unreliable.


________

- the second link below, is about the first eight steps of Ānāpānasati, according to a proper lexicography:
https://justpaste.it/1js3l

________

Worth a try.
Even the new mysterianists can do it - who knows?!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_mysterianism

Question Mark & The Mysterians - 96 Tears:

Good kamma.
Good escape.
Farewell.

Giving the gate!
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.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:47 am

Sorry, just one more thing:

We have seen above (for those who were interested) that it is paramount to understand the flow of breathing.
First, breathing in towards the far & lofty external - Then breathing out, away from the external - "Catching it" with a close & low internal (satta's) breathing in - then "pushing it" away from the internal, with a breathing out - "Catching it" (again) with a far & lofty external breathing in ... so on & so forth, in a steady flow.

_______

For those interested by the above process (lexicographically much sounder), there is a sutta that deals with this external and internal shebang, and that is pretty interesting - and that is SN 52.1. (Part of this sutta appears also in the metta sutta @SN 46. 54).
Although both of these suttas have no parallel in the Agamas, concerning this particular passage; the Theravadins' analysis is staggeringly gripping.

We will see that, in this particular case, samudaya and Vaya are not about arising & vanishing; but about flow - Nor are paṭikūla & apaṭikūla about repulsive and un-repulsive; but again about flow.

For if you look closely to that sutta, you realize that everything is about "flow".

Both Samudaya and Vaya, in the Pali's extracts are about flow.
ajjhattaṃ kāye samudayadhammānupassī viharati, ajjhattaṃ kāye vayadhammānupassī viharati, ajjhattaṃ kāye samudayavayadhammānupassī viharati.
(He) dwells contemplating the nature of origination in the body internally; he dwells contemplating the nature of vanishing in the body internally; he dwells contemplating the nature of origination and vanishing in the body internally.

Indeed, the proper translation in this case should be:
(He) fetches with distinction [viharati (https://justpaste.it/18epx)], while contemplating the synergistic flow of the phenomenon (dhamma) in the body (e. g. breath) internally; he fetches with distinction, while contemplating the disjointed flow of the phenomenon (dhamma) in the body (e. g. breath) internally; he fetches with distinction, while contemplating the nature of the synergistic and disjointed flow in the body internally
.
Samudaya
samudayati: samudeti [saṃ-√ud-√i]
Samudeti [saṁ+udeti]
Udeti [ud + eti of √i ]

&

Vaya
[Sk.व्यय vyaya - [ vy-aya ] - (act. of वी vī = vi+√i)

----------

with:
√ उद् ud OR √ उन्द् und
- to flow or issue out , spring (as water) (RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr. ĀśvGṛ.)
√ इ i
- to go - to flow - spread (RV. AV. ŚBr. MBh.)

&

Saṃ = collectively, jointly, synergistically.
Vi = apart, asunder.



::::::::::::::::

Also, the second part of the sutta is about "flow".
For in this particular case paṭikūla does not mean repulsive; but instead, "against the current".
Anu-kūla (appaṭikūla), means "according to the current" in AV.

So the translation of the second part of SN 52.1 becomes:
“If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the "against-the-flow" in the "with-the-flow",’ he dwells perceiving the "against-the-flow" therein.
So sace ākaṅkhati: ‘appaṭikūle paṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, paṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati;

If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the "with-the-flow" in the "against-the-flow",’ he dwells perceiving the "with-the-flow" therein.
sace ākaṅkhati: ‘paṭikūle appaṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, appaṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati;

If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the "against-the-flow" in the "with-the-flow" and in the "against-the-flow",’ he dwells perceiving the "against-the-flow" therein.
sace ākaṅkhati: ‘appaṭikūle ca paṭikūle ca paṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, paṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati;

If he wishes: ‘May I dwell perceiving the "with-the-flow" in the "against-the-flow" and in the "with-the-flow",’ he dwells perceiving the "with-the-flow" therein.
sace ākaṅkhati: ‘paṭikūle ca appaṭikūle ca appaṭikūlasaññī vihareyyan’ti, appaṭikūlasaññī tattha viharati;

If he wishes: ‘Avoiding both the "with-the-flow" and the "against-the-flow", may I dwell equanimously, mindful and clearly discerning, ’ then he dwells therein equanimously, mindful and clearly discerning.
sace ākaṅkhati: ‘appaṭikūlañca paṭikūlañca tadubhayaṃ abhinivajjetvā upekkhako vihareyyaṃ sato sampajāno’ti, upekkhako tattha viharati sato sampajāno.
SN 52.1
with:
Abhinivajjetvā
[abhi+ni+vajja+ṇetvā - lit. mastering (subduing) + outward + that which should be avoided + having led (carried away).
Having carried away, the outward subduing of that which should be avoided].

_________

The double occurence of that "flow" - in the first part (samudaya & vaya), and in the second part (paṭikūla & apaṭikūla) - is quite unusual, and worth noticing. Isn't it?
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:50 am

This satta's breathing in is just death & life.

This satta's breathing out is just death & life.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Volo
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by Volo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:24 am

The simile the Buddha gives for digha and rassa rules out these ideas about far/near, and shows that long/short (or some similar qualities) is what is intended:
Just as a skilled lathe-operator or his apprentice, when making a long turn, understands: ‘I make a long turn’; or, when making a short turn, understands: ‘I make a short turn’; so too, breathing in long, a bhikkhu understands: ‘I breathe in long’… he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’

ToVincent
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:13 am

Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:24 am
The simile the Buddha gives for digha and rassa rules out these ideas about far/near, and shows that long/short (or some similar qualities) is what is intended:
Well Sir Volo, I have a systematic way to handle passages in the Buddhist's texts.
Namely that they must have at least a parallel for those extracts.

Then I might "rule out".
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
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Re: He breathes far (lofty) & close (low)

Post by ToVincent » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:47 pm

The two layers (close/low & far/lofty) have each two nodes.

The low layer has the saḷāyatana on the "left" & satta's nāma (as per SN 12. 2 definition,) on the "right".

The lofty layer (above the lower layer,) has the viññāṇa nidāna on the "right", and the nāmarūpa nidāna on the "left".

(Note: draw these four nodes as rectangles, to visualize them).

The breathing (in & out) flows counter-clockwise, through these nodes, revealing the two pleasures; of which two, the sukhamanubodhiṃ (the supreme knowledge of the citta-like (SN 35.97) pleasure of mankind - AN 10. 26,) is the highest.


https://justpaste.it/1695d
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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