Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

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SarathW
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Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:10 am

Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?
I can understand why they termed second to forth Jhana as Rupavacara.
But I cant understand why it is refer to first Jhana.
In first Jhana you still have Vitakka and Vicara related to wholesome thoughts.
When you have wholesome thoughts such as Brahmavihara are you free from Kamavacara?
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:12 am

Hi Sarath,

Why do you think that first jhana cannot be categorised under rupavacara?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:45 am

What is your understanding of Rupavacara?
Why it is called Rupavacara?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:31 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:45 am
What is your understanding of Rupavacara?
Why it is called Rupavacara?
Whether it's kamavacara, rupavacara or arupavacara is distinguished by the type of cittas that arise. It is said kamavacara citta are quite distinct from rupavacara cittas. Some rupavacara cittas can arise with vitakka. Other types of rupavacara cittas can arise without vitakka.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:46 am

I am trying to understand the etymology of "rupavacara"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:21 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:46 am
I am trying to understand the etymology of "rupavacara"
Its in SC. Just look up "rupavacara" and "vacara". :smile:
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:10 am
I can understand why they termed second to forth Jhana as Rupavacara
Can you? Please share your understanding. Thanks :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 am

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i believe this may answer some questions; even tho' i don't understand much of it :smile:
Part of Lokiya Cittas.
15 cittas are rupavacara cittas. Rupa here means rupa brahma from 15 rupa brahma bhumi where there are both citta and rupa. Avcara means frequently arising. Rupavacara cittas most frequently arise in rupa brahma bhumis even though they can arise in other bhumi such as kama bhumi like deva bhumi and manussa bhumi or human realm.
15 rupavacara cittas or 15 rupajhana cittas can be divided into three groups depending on their origin or jati or type of citta. They are
* 5 rupakusala cittas,
* 5 rupavipaka cittas, and
* 5 rupakiriya cittas.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/rupavacara-citta

Frequently is key, imo.


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DooDoot
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:12 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 am
even tho' i don't understand much of it
Imo, its called "rupa jhana" because the pleasant feelings are bodily feelings. I imagine when the body & its nervous system are purified from stress & stored sankharas, the nerves of the nervous system start to radiate & bliss out. Even though there is no awareness of the physical body in rupa jhana (because the breathing can no longer be discerned due to its tranquillity and due to the pleasant feelings), the bliss of the jhana is produced by the nervous system of the physical body, which includes the brain (imo). Therefore, the bliss is only experienced in the brain, even though the whole physical nervous system is blissed out. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:12 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 am
even tho' i don't understand much of it
Imo, its called "rupa jhana" because the pleasant feelings are bodily feelings. I imagine when the body & its nervous system are purified from stress & stored sankharas, the nerves of the nervous system start to radiate & bliss out. Even though there is no awareness of the physical body in rupa jhana (because the breathing can no longer be discerned due to its tranquillity and due to the pleasant feelings), the bliss of the jhana is produced by the nervous system of the physical body, which includes the brain (imo). Therefore, the bliss is only experienced in the brain, even though the whole physical nervous system is blissed out. :meditate:
There is no “radiation” of bliss or pleasure
"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. This is the first development of the five-factored noble right concentration.
His body is permeated with pleasure and rapture. Not his environment.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

SarathW
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:40 am

What is the difference between Kamavacar and Rupavacara?
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:31 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:33 am
there is no “radiation” of bliss or pleasure...
There is. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pondera
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:31 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:33 am
there is no “radiation” of bliss or pleasure...
There is. :smile:
Okay. You win. I can’t keep up with these complicated arguments :bow:
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm

In all seriousness, the sutta reference is right there. How does it feel to directly contradict the dhamma and spread misinformation, DooDoot?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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DooDoot
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:35 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm
In all seriousness, the sutta reference is right there.
MN 119 is probably fake dhamma plus you don't appear to understand it away. When MN 119 says what it says, the impression is you believe the meditator is "doing" these things.
They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.

It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.

MN 119
:candle:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm
How does it feel to directly contradict the dhamma and spread misinformation, DooDoot?
Jhana is certainly "radiant"; which is why the jhana realms are called "radiant gods; luminous gods", etc. Obviously, your posts indicate knowing nothing about it. :smile:
Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara[1] devas.[2]

Notes
1. Lit., Radiant.
2. The Abhassara, Subhakinha, and Vehapphala devas are all Brahmas on the level of form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-1
How very happily we live,
we who have nothing.
We will feed on rapture
like the Radiant gods.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ajahn Brahm says:
Jhana designates meditation proper, where meditator's mind is stilled from all thought, secluded from all five sense activity and is radiant with other-worldly bliss.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
It seems true jhana is born from letting go, as the suttas explain in MN 118, SN 48.10, etc. The self-declared DW Jhana Masters, such as Pondera, Budo & Puslar, I have never read refer to "letting go". :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: Why first Jhana is called Rupavacara Jhana?

Post by Pondera » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:35 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm
In all seriousness, the sutta reference is right there.
MN 119 is probably fake dhamma plus you don't appear to understand it away.
“Probably”? On whose authority? For what reason?

When MN 119 says what it says, the impression is you believe the meditator is "doing" these things.
They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.

It’s like when a deft bathroom attendant or their apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. They knead it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.

MN 119
Quite clearly, there is intention involved in Jhana. So, yes - there is a “doing” here. Even “letting go” is a “doing” of sorts.

:candle:
Pondera wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:12 pm
How does it feel to directly contradict the dhamma and spread misinformation, DooDoot?
Jhana is certainly "radiant"; which is why the jhana realms are called "radiant gods; luminous gods", etc. Obviously, your posts indicate knowing nothing about it. :smile:
Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara[1] devas.[2]

Notes
1. Lit., Radiant.
2. The Abhassara, Subhakinha, and Vehapphala devas are all Brahmas on the level of form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-1
How very happily we live,
we who have nothing.
We will feed on rapture
like the Radiant gods.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ajahn Brahm says:
Jhana designates meditation proper, where meditator's mind is stilled from all thought, secluded from all five sense activity and is radiant with other-worldly bliss.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Are you a “Radiant God”, DooDoot?

What is “rapture” such that it “radiates”? What is “pleasure” such that it “radiates”? You mention the involvement of the nervous system in Jhana. What does our nervous system “radiate”?
It seems true jhana is born from letting go, as the suttas explain in MN 118, SN 48.10, etc. The self-declared DW Jhana Masters, such as Pondera, Budo & Puslar, I have never read refer to "letting go". :smile:
I let go of one thing and hold onto the other. I release rapture and pleasure into my body and make it my theme. For as long as I hold onto my theme, my body remains steeped in rapture and pleasure.

You hold on to this reference of “letting go”. Why? Of course final gnosis is only attained by letting go; but do you know of what? What do we let go of in final gnosis?

You hold on to “letting go”. You cling to “letting go”. The Buddha teaches ten universal themes of meditation. These are meant to be held on to and developed.

When you meditate; What is your theme, DooDoot?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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