Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:08 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm
binocular wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Can you make (!), for example, a little hatred and a lot of hatred?
I don't think hatred would normally count as a feeling in this context, but I think the hatred one experiences could be increased or decreased at will.
And so you have an example of the intensity of a thought-feeling being under your control. Next step is noticing that even the arising of that feeling can be intentional to begin with.
No. Hatred is not a feeling. Feelings (vedanā)
are not under one's control.

auto
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by auto » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:06 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 am
You are wrong.
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already posted only Bhikkhu Buddhadasa has translated this correctly. "Citta" is "mind" and not "mental".
Perception and feeling are mental properties tied up with the mind, that’s why perception and feeling the mind conditioner.”

Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
sanna and vedana and cetasika will lead to dhamma citta. Therefore sanna and vedana are cittasankhara.

sanna and perception has built in function what lead eventually to dhamma-citta that's why sanna and vedana are cittas sankhara.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
“But ma’am, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?” “Sukhāya panāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
bha=bhava, can make lots of word out of it.


pleasant feeling eventually will lead to dukkha
, dukkha will lead eventually to pleasant feeling.
“Painful feeling.” “Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya dukkhā vedanā paṭibhāgo”ti.
“What is the counterpart of painful feeling?” “Dukkhāya pannāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
“Pleasant feeling.” “Dukkhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya sukhā vedanā paṭibhāgo”ti.

binocular
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:23 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:08 pm
Hatred is not a feeling.
What would you call it, then?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:02 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:08 pm
Hatred is not a feeling.
What would you call it, then?
Canonically, it is a defilement, asava, etc.

binocular
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:07 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:02 pm
Canonically, it is a defilement, asava, etc.
These have a feeling element to them; e.g. hatred feels a particular way in the body.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:31 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:07 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:02 pm
Canonically, it is a defilement, asava, etc.
These have a feeling element to them; e.g. hatred feels a particular way in the body.
No, what counts as hatred can have a whole range of different feelings associated with it. The same applies to greed (sexual desire feels very different from intellectual or gustatory desire, etc.). There is no "particular" feeling. One might have hatred for a particular feeling, but the feeling and the hatred are conceptually distinct.

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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by auto » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:41 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
“Sukhāya panāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
sukha is the sankhara sukha, sukha from intent. pana

It has dukkha as an arbitrary:
“Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya dukkhā vedanā paṭibhāgo”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
When they’re touched by painful feeling, they resist it.
Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti.
intent arisen dukkha feeling is hate.
The underlying tendency for repulsion towards painful feeling underlies that.
Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti.
that dukkha feeling hate has ill-will hidden as a motive.
When touched by painful feeling they look forward to enjoying sensual pleasures.
So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati.
ordinary person with dukkha vedana is accustomed towards sensual pleasures.
Why is that? Taṃ kissa hetu?
Because an uneducated ordinary person doesn’t understand any escape from painful feeling apart from sensual pleasures.
Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ,
because ordinary person knows only sensual pleasure to be as dukkha vedana liberator.
.
Since they look forward to enjoying sensual pleasures, the underlying tendency to greed for pleasant feeling underlies that.
tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.
looking forward to enjoying sensual pleasures is insisted by greed what is sukkha vedana.

other words its this:
“But ma’am, what is the counterpart of pleasant feeling?” “Sukhāya panāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
“Painful feeling.” “Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya dukkhā vedanā paṭibhāgo”ti.
“What is the counterpart of painful feeling?” “Dukkhāya pannāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
“Pleasant feeling.” “Dukkhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya sukhā vedanā paṭibhāgo”ti.
the pleasant feeling and suffering are the greed, hate etc.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
They don’t truly understand feelings’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape.
So tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.
not understanding the feeling origin, ending, gratification, drawback and escape is ignorance
The underlying tendency to ignorance about neutral feeling underlies that.
Tassa tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ appajānato, yo adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo, so anuseti.
that ignorance is insisted by adukkhamasukha feeling which is dumbness.

“What is the counterpart of neutral feeling?” “Adukkhamasukhāya panāyye, vedanāya kiṃ paṭibhāgo”ti?
“Ignorance.” “Adukkhamasukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya avijjā paṭibhāgo”ti.

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