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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:16 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 am
Abhidhamma
Language of suttas is being discussed.
What are the five kinds of emotional [mental] barrenness they haven’t given up?
Katamassa pañca cetokhilā appahīnā honti?

Firstly, a mendicant has doubts about the Teacher. They’re uncertain, undecided, and lacking confidence.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satthari kaṅkhati vicikicchati nādhimuccati na sampasīdati.

This being so, their mind doesn’t incline toward keenness, commitment, persistence, and striving.

Yo so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satthari kaṅkhati vicikicchati nādhimuccati na sampasīdati, tassa cittaṃ na namati ātappāya anuyogāya sātaccāya padhānāya.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.14/en/sujato

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:17 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:16 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 am
Abhidhamma
Language of suttas is being discussed.
Wrong. Language rendered by Sujato is being discussed.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:21 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:17 am
Wrong. Language rendered by Sujato is being discussed.
No.
Here, a bhikkhu is perplexed about the Teacher, doubts him, is not convinced about him and does not place confidence in him. When a bhikkhu is perplexed about the Teacher, doubts him, is not convinced about him and does not place confidence in him, his mind (citta) does not incline to ardor, effort, perseverance, and striving. Since his mind does not incline to ardor … … and striving, this is the first kind of mental (ceto) barrenness that he has not abandoned.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.14/en/bodhi
Dunniggahassa
lahuno,
yatthakāmanipātino;
Cittassa damatho sādhu,
cittaṃ dantaṃ sukhāvahaṃ.

Wonderful, indeed, it is to subdue the mind, so difficult to subdue, ever swift, and seizing whatever it desires. A tamed mind brings happiness.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp33-43/en/buddharakkhita

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:24 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:21 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:17 am
Wrong. Language rendered by Sujato is being discussed.
No.
Here, a bhikkhu is perplexed about the Teacher, doubts him, is not convinced about him and does not place confidence in him. When a bhikkhu is perplexed about the Teacher, doubts him, is not convinced about him and does not place confidence in him, his mind (citta) does not incline to ardor, effort, perseverance, and striving. Since his mind does not incline to ardor … … and striving, this is the first kind of mental (ceto) barrenness that he has not abandoned.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.14/en/bodhi
Yes:
MN 44 wrote:Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:24 am
MN 44 wrote:Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”
Sorry. Its wrong.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:25 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:24 am
MN 44 wrote:Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”
Sorry. Its wrong.
Sorry. You are wrong.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 am
You are wrong.
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already posted only Bhikkhu Buddhadasa has translated this correctly. "Citta" is "mind" and not "mental".
Perception and feeling are mental properties tied up with the mind, that’s why perception and feeling the mind conditioner.”

Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:31 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 am
You are wrong.
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already posted only Bhikkhu Buddhadasa has translated this correctly.
Perception and feeling are mental tied up with the mind, that’s why perception and feeling the mind conditioner.”

Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already pointed out why you are wrong. Cetasika is mental factors, not mental.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:33 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:31 am
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already pointed out why you are wrong.
"Citta" is not "mental". "Citta" is "mind". The sutta quotes are clear.
cetasika
adjective
mental; (nt.), a mental property.

https://suttacentral.net/define/ceto

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:34 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:33 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:31 am
No. You are defeating your own argument. I already pointed out why you are wrong.
"Citta" is not "mental". "Citta" is "mind". The sutta quotes are clear.
Cetasika is not mental. Cetasika is mental factors. The suttas, CMOA, AND Pali Dictionary are clear. By the way, you intentionally give wrong information. The link you gave (https://suttacentral.net/define/ceto) says https://suttacentral.net/define/ceto"Definition for Ceto", Not Cetasika[/size][/color][/u][/b]

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:34 am
Cetasika is not mental. Cetasika is mental factors. The suttas, CMOA, AND Pali Dictionary are clear.
:roll:
Concise Pali English Dictionary
cetasika
adjective
mental; (nt.), a mental property.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
cetasika
adjective
belonging to ceto, mental (opp. kāyika physical). Kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ → cetasikaṃ s. AN.i.81;

https://suttacentral.net/define/ceto
Noun
citta

(figuratively) mind, heart, feeling

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/citta

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:34 am
Cetasika is not mental. Cetasika is mental factors. The suttas, CMOA, AND Pali Dictionary are clear.
:roll:
Concise Pali English Dictionary
cetasika
adjective
mental; (nt.), a mental property.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
cetasika
adjective
belonging to ceto, mental (opp. kāyika physical). Kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ → cetasikaṃ s. AN.i.81;

https://suttacentral.net/define/ceto
YOu intentionally give the wrong information. The link you gave says: Definitions for ceto, NOT Cetasika
Pali Dictionary wrote: cetasika: 'mental things, mental factors', are those mental concomitants which are bound up with the simultaneously arising consciousness (citta = viññāna) and conditioned by its presence.

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 am
Definitions for ceto, NOT Cetasika
We are discussing "citta" in "cittasankhara". "Citta" means "mind".

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:43 am
by santa100
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 am
Definitions for ceto, NOT Cetasika
We are discussing "citta" in "cittasankhara". "Citta" means "mind".
Mind is not the only translation. Citta can mean mind, consciousness, mental processes. By the way, care to provide sources/references that say only Buddhadassa is right, while Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Nanamoli are wrong?

Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:50 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:43 am
By the way, care to provide sources/references that say only Buddhadassa is right, while Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Nanamoli are wrong?
There are many suttas (e.g MN 148) that say pleasant feeling conditions lust in the mind and unpleasant feelings condition aversion in the mind. Therefore, feelings are the mind conditioner or mental conditioners. They are not the "mental condition". Buddhism 101. Regards :smile: