Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

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santa100
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:50 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:43 am
By the way, care to provide sources/references that say only Buddhadassa is right, while Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Nanamoli are wrong?
There are many suttas (e.g MN 148) that say pleasant feeling conditions lust in the mind and unpleasant feelings condition aversion in the mind. Therefore, feelings are the mind conditioner or mental conditioners. They are not the "mental condition". Buddhism 101. Regards :smile:
Well, Buddhism 101 requires one to provide sources/references to back up their claim. Seems like someone hasn't made it out of kindergarten. Regards :smile:

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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:52 am

santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:51 am

Well, Buddhism 101 requires one to provided sources/references to back up their claim.
I provided the source - MN 148. You have provided nothing.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:52 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:51 am

Well, Buddhism 101 requires one to provided sources/references to back up their claim.
I provided the source - MN 148. You have provided nothing.
I provided tons of sources. You have provided nothing. You still have not provided sources to back up your claim that only Buddhadassa is right and Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Nanamoli are wrong.
Last edited by santa100 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:54 am

santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:53 am
I provided tons of sources.
Sutta source:
i “Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.
The above shows Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Nanamoli are wrong.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:54 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:53 am
I provided tons of sources.
Sutta source:
i “Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.
Where are the sources to back up your claim that only Buddhadassa is right and Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Nanamoli are wrong? The above proves nothing. THis is your claim. Where is the source?
DooDoot wrote:The only modern monk that has translated cittasankhara correctly is Bhikkhu Buddhadasa.

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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:59 am

santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:55 am
The above proves nothing.
The above proves feelings are the "mind conditioner" and not the "mental condition". The above proves feelings are the condition for or conditioner of greed, hatred & delusion.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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santa100
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:59 am
santa100 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:55 am
The above proves nothing.
The above proves feelings are the "mind conditioner" and not the "mental condition". The above proves feelings are the condition for greed, hatred & delusion.
It never says that. You just made that up. It says nothing about that. I'm still waiting for the source.

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DooDoot
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:01 am

:hello:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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santa100
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by santa100 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:08 am

:zzz:

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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by pegembara » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 am

'Preperations' is indeed a word significant to all, and the function of samskaras is exactly making one ready to reap the fruits of one's actions, of whatever kind they may be. Without samskaras life in this world would be unthinkable, because pre-perations give meaning to life, and one's
interest in life mostly consists of an uninterrupted series of preperations, which lead from one kind of activity into another. Thus the meaning one
gives to life is defined by his samskaras.

It seems to have been a special intention of Buddha to widen the sphere of usage of the term 'preperations', in order to lead people to disgust
with themselves and thus with the world, all in accordance with the key principle of Sramana culture; bondage, liberation and path are to be searched for only within one's six feet long body, and nowhere else. [S.N.4.98]

In a famous passage, recurring on several places in Pali, [D.N.3,212,S.N.2,82, 3.87 etc.] samskaras are explained as that, which prepares
the prepared..., preparing form into the state of form, feeling into the state of feeling etc. ( with all other aggregates) (註6) Samskaras, represented as potter kneading pots in Tibetan tanka representations, prepare the world in two ways, by causes and conditions and by one's will or effort, both being but two aspects of the same process of preparing.

To summerize, the word samskara is used in Buddhism to refer to all the world, individualized as five aggregates of existence. It is used in
active sense to refer to everything creating, preparing one's existence, and in passive sense to everything prepared, created in it, because
samskaras tempered by previous samskaras constitute the causal relations in the world on all levels of existence.

In the Theravada tradition samskara as aggregate is usually taken to refer to all mental factors [51 cetasikas] except feeling and conceptualization, which form separate aggregates. However this differentiation is only a matter of emphasis, because the late two are also referred to as mind preparations [cittasankharas] in the scriptures. [M. N.1 , 301]

http://www.chibs.edu.tw/ch_html/bcc/an19_115.htm
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by binocular » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:56 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 am
Listening to a Thanissaro talk on the sixteen steps of mindfulness of breathing, he says the following on the feeling tetrad:
The next four steps have to do with feelings. First you train yourself to breath in and out sensitive to rapture.

The word “rapture” here can also mean “refreshment”. Ask yourself…What type of breathing will feel refreshing right now?

Feelings don’t come and go on their own, the mind helps to fabricate them because there is an intentional element in every feeling.

The next step would be to breath in such a way that feels easeful and pleasant.
What does he mean when he says there is an intentional element in every feeling?
I'll go by memory, if that's okay:

Ven. Thanissaro sometimes speaks about how a thought or a feeling starts out as a small, barely recognizable stirring somewhere in the body. From then on, it is actually a matter of an intentional act as to whether that thought or feeling will further be developed, or not. If one focuses on that stirring, with a particular attitude (such as esp. greed, lust, hatred) one develops it, and so then it becomes a full-blown thought or feeling. But once one notices the stirring, one can also focus on the breath and sort of breathe through the stirring, and the stirring will dissolve, the thought or the feeling will not develop. That's one way that there is an intentional element in thoughts and feelings.

Secondly, as he says in the passage you're quoting, one has the intention to feel refreshed by the breath; so for that purpose, one breathes trying different kinds of breathing, see what they feel like, and then choose the kind that feels most refreshing. This is also how there is an intentional element in a feeling.
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by binocular » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 pm
But most feelings are outside of our control, and just arise according to their own nature. We don't intend them.
Can you make (!), for example, a little hatred and a lot of hatred?
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 pm
But most feelings are outside of our control, and just arise according to their own nature. We don't intend them.
Can you make (!), for example, a little hatred and a lot of hatred?
I don't think hatred would normally count as a feeling in this context, but I think the hatred one experiences could be increased or decreased at will.

binocular
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by binocular » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm
binocular wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 pm
But most feelings are outside of our control, and just arise according to their own nature. We don't intend them.
Can you make (!), for example, a little hatred and a lot of hatred?
I don't think hatred would normally count as a feeling in this context, but I think the hatred one experiences could be increased or decreased at will.
And so you have an example of the intensity of a thought-feeling being under your control. Next step is noticing that even the arising of that feeling can be intentional to begin with.
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Re: Mindulness of Breathing - Thanissaro

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:18 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:26 pm
binocular wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Can you make (!), for example, a little hatred and a lot of hatred?
I don't think hatred would normally count as a feeling in this context, but I think the hatred one experiences could be increased or decreased at will.
And so you have an example of the intensity of a thought-feeling being under your control. Next step is noticing that even the arising of that feeling can be intentional to begin with.
I see this as related to Right Effort. I know for example that I can generate anxiety by thinking about certain things, so dwelling on those subjects is clearly counterproductive, and unskillful. I find it is better to focus my attention on things which "improve" my mental state.
Clearly this applies both on and off the cushion.
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