Mindfulness v Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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one_awakening
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Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by one_awakening » Sun May 26, 2019 8:53 am

I don't see any difference between meditation and mindfulness. Mindfulness can be practiced at any time. When practicing mindfulness while sitting, it's called meditation.
“You only lose what you cling to”

SarathW
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by SarathW » Sun May 26, 2019 9:20 am

Mindfulness (Sati) follow the Samadhi (concentration)
Sati is generally covered in Sati Pathana Sutta and Concentration is covered in Jhana and Samadi Sutta.
Perhaps, Sati is the process of bringing the mind to Samadhi.
Pali word for meditation is Bhavana.
There is Samath Bhavana and Vipassana Bhavana and both require Sati.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun May 26, 2019 9:23 am

Image



walking meditation

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standing meditation

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lying meditation

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:zzz: sleeping 💤 meditation :lol:

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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Sun May 26, 2019 3:14 pm

Meditation is mindfulness + concentration

Off the cushion, it's just mindfulness.

Mindfulness builds character (sense restraint, virtue, etc..)

Concentration develops abiding, which leads to knowledge and vision.

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one_awakening
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by one_awakening » Mon May 27, 2019 1:00 am

budo wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:14 pm
Meditation is mindfulness + concentration
Whenever you're practicing mindfulness you are also developing concentration. I don't think you can separate the two.
“You only lose what you cling to”

SarathW
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by SarathW » Mon May 27, 2019 1:22 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:00 am
budo wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:14 pm
Meditation is mindfulness + concentration
Whenever you're practicing mindfulness you are also developing concentration. I don't think you can separate the two.
Agree. That is why Noble Eightfold Path is broadly termed as Sila, Samadhi, and Panna.
Samadhi = Rifgt effort+Reight mindfulness + Right Samadhi
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Mon May 27, 2019 6:41 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:00 am
budo wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:14 pm
Meditation is mindfulness + concentration
Whenever you're practicing mindfulness you are also developing concentration. I don't think you can separate the two.
So you're practicing concentration when you're mindful of yourself eating?

SarathW
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by SarathW » Mon May 27, 2019 6:52 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Mon May 27, 2019 7:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:52 am
Similar question.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26893&p=385568&hilit=
Because the goal of Samma Sati is Samma Samadhi, it doesn't mean that one gets Samma Samadhi automatically by practicing all forms of Samma Sati.

Samma Samadhi is another layer on the pyramid, that has Samma Sati as its foundation.

Samma Sati has Right Effort as its foundation. The main foundation of the entire pyramid is Samma Ditthi.

Meditation is when there is Samma Sati AND Samma Samadhi.

One is not meditating just because they're mindul of themselves when defecating, urinating, or eating.

Each layer higher in the pyramid is smaller than the previous because it's more specific.

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one_awakening
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by one_awakening » Mon May 27, 2019 9:06 am

budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:41 am
So you're practicing concentration when you're mindful of yourself eating?
Yes. You are keeping the body in mind and also concentrating on your body movements.
“You only lose what you cling to”

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:06 am
budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:41 am
So you're practicing concentration when you're mindful of yourself eating?
Yes. You are keeping the body in mind and also concentrating on your body movements.
Is that Right Concentration though?

Right Concentration is Jhanas, attention sustained and maintained (vitakka and vicara) on a single object leads to nimitta which leads to jhanas
“Bhikkhus, possessing three factors, a shopkeeper is incapable of acquiring wealth not yet acquired or of increasing wealth already acquired. What three? Here, a shopkeeper does not diligently apply himself to his work in the morning, in the middle of the day, or in the evening. Possessing these three factors, a shopkeeper is incapable of acquiring wealth not yet acquired or of increasing wealth already acquired.

“So too, possessing three factors, a bhikkhu is incapable of achieving a wholesome state not yet attained or of increasing a wholesome state already attained. What three? Here, a bhikkhu does not diligently apply himself to an object of concentration in the morning, in the middle of the day, or in the evening. Possessing these three factors, a bhikkhu is incapable of achieving a wholesome state not yet attained or of increasing a wholesome state already attained.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pubbaṇhasamayaṃ sakkaccaṃ samādhinimittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, majjhanhikasamayaṃ … pe … sāyanhasamayaṃ sakkaccaṃ samādhinimittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti.
How can one arise a nimitta if they are not secluded, as seclusion is a condition for jhanas. One can be mindful of themselves dancing at a concert, but that is not concentration.

Mindfulness without nimitta, is NOT concentration
“So too, monks, here some foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions (i.e. hindrances) are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he does not pick up that sign.That foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk, does not gain pleasant dwellings in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk does not pick up the sign of his own mind. ...So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind becomes concentrated, his corruptions are abandoned, he picks up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he picks up that sign.That wise, competent, skillful monk gains pleasant dwellings in this very life, and he gains mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that wise, competent, skillfulmonk picks up the sign of his own mind.”
- SN 47.8

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one_awakening
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by one_awakening » Mon May 27, 2019 9:33 am

budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am
Is that Right Concentration though?

Right Concentration is Jhanas, attention sustained and maintained on a single object leads to nimitta which leads to jhanas
Yes it is right concentration. Just because you're not in Jhana does not mean concentration is not present.

For example, when you're being mindful of the body, you're keeping the body in mind. Concentration keeps the mind focused on the body so your attention does not waiver.
“You only lose what you cling to”

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Mon May 27, 2019 9:34 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:33 am
budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am
Is that Right Concentration though?

Right Concentration is Jhanas, attention sustained and maintained on a single object leads to nimitta which leads to jhanas
Yes it is right concentration. Just because you're not in Jhana does not mean concentration is not present.

For example, when you're being mindful of the body, you're keeping the body in mind. Concentration keeps the mind focused on the body so your attention does not waiver.
Mindfulness without nimitta, is NOT concentration
“So too, monks, here some foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions (i.e. hindrances) are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he does not pick up that sign.That foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk, does not gain pleasant dwellings in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that foolish, incompetent, unskillful monk does not pick up the sign of his own mind. ...So too, monks, here some wise, competent, skillful monk dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and grief in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind becomes concentrated, his corruptions are abandoned, he picks up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... Dhamma in Dhamma ... he picks up that sign.That wise, competent, skillful monk gains pleasant dwellings in this very life, and he gains mindfulness and clear awareness. For what reason? Because, monks, that wise, competent, skillfulmonk picks up the sign of his own mind.”
- SN 47.8

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one_awakening
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by one_awakening » Mon May 27, 2019 9:43 am

budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am

Mindfulness without nimitta, is NOT concentration

How can you be mindful of something, with ZERO concentration?
“You only lose what you cling to”

budo
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Re: Mindfulness v Meditation

Post by budo » Mon May 27, 2019 9:47 am

one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:43 am
budo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am

Mindfulness without nimitta, is NOT concentration

How you be mindful of something, with ZERO concentration?
Don't shift the goal posts, you originally wrote
one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:00 am
Whenever you're practicing mindfulness you are also developing concentration. I don't think you can separate the two.
Clearly one can be mindful and not be concentrated as the sutta shows.


Then you said
one_awakening wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:33 am


Yes it is right concentration. Just because you're not in Jhana does not mean concentration is not present.
The sutta has shown that the two CAN be separated and also that Right Concentration starts with first jhana, which comes after the nimitta, and one gets the nimitta after seclusion and before overcoming the 5 hindrances.

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