STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Post Reply
frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by frank k » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:44 pm

www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED 31asb: not 32, the duty of the EBT jedi

Post by frank k » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:06 am

the duty of the EBT jedi:
There are 31 body parts, not 32 in the Theravada EBT pali.
image gallery in here.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... s-in.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

User avatar
Volo
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by Volo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:05 am

Brain is mentioned as 32nd part in Khuddakapāṭha 3, also it is listed in Snp. Both are early texts:
Snp 1.11 wrote: 193. When one is walking or standing,
sitting or lying down,
when one bends and stretches —
this is the motion of the body. (1)

194. Bound together by bones and sinews,
plastered with skin and flesh,
covered by the epidermis,
the body is not seen as it really is — (2)

195. as filled with intestines,
filled with the stomach,
with the liver and bladder,
the heart, lungs, kidneys, and spleen; (3)

196. with snot and saliva,
with sweat and fat,
with blood and oil of the joints,
with bile and grease. (4)

197. Further, from its nine openings
impurity flows constantly:
muck from the eyes,
wax from the ears, (5)

198. snot from the nostrils;
and from the mouth one sometimes
vomits bile and vomits phlegm;
sweat and dirt flow from the body. (6)

199. Then its hollow head
is filled with the brain
.
Led on by ignorance, the fool
conceives it as beautiful. (7)

frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by frank k » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:04 am

I count 30 in Snp 1.1.
How do you get 32?

That passage is more similar to the MN 10 parallels in other EBT schools, with the the 9 orifices.

Yes, KN Snp is in general very early EBT, but there's nothing to stop unscrupulous Dhamma corruptors from adding or modifying the early texts. If you do comparative study between the different EBT schools, you see sometimes the differences are very trivial, but sometimes there are very suspicious big differences with an obvious agenda.

example: in a few suttas (happens in about 3 suttas I think) in MN where at the conclusion, 60 disciples become arahants after listening to the Buddha give a talk, in the MA parallel, it doesn't mention that. That's not a minor detail that a sutta reciter would be likely to forget! Another sutta in the MN 100's, where it talks about the merit of donating requisites to bhikkhus, even ones who are corrupt. In the MA parallel, it does not have that! Very obvious the Theravadans added that self serving detail to encourage lay people to support the entire sangha, and not only the sangha members who kept the vinaya purely.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by frank k » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... rain.html
all the occurrences of "brain" in pali suttas 💩🧠
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

User avatar
Volo
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by Volo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:03 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:04 am
I count 30 in Snp 1.1.
How do you get 32?
Snp 1.1 doesn't list the body parts. If you mean Snp 1.11, then I've never said it contains 32 parts, please read carefully. My point was that there is nothing alien to early texts in counting brain among body parts and as an object for loathsomeness meditation.
Yes, KN Snp is in general very early EBT, but there's nothing to stop unscrupulous Dhamma corruptors from adding or modifying the early texts.
In Snp 1.11 brain is mentioned as a part of the verses, which is not easy to modify.
example: in a few suttas (happens in about 3 suttas I think) in MN where at the conclusion, 60 disciples become arahants after listening to the Buddha give a talk, in the MA parallel, it doesn't mention that. That's not a minor detail that a sutta reciter would be likely to forget! Another sutta in the MN 100's, where it talks about the merit of donating requisites to bhikkhus, even ones who are corrupt. In the MA parallel, it does not have that! Very obvious the Theravadans added that self serving detail to encourage lay people to support the entire sangha, and not only the sangha members who kept the vinaya purely.
What does the above have to do with the brain as an object of the meditation on the loathsomeness?

jabalí
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:52 pm

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by jabalí » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:11 am

The list of 32 parts is an example, not an incantation. There is nothing wrong with reflecting in another order or on other parts.

frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by frank k » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:45 pm

The main point here is if one opens their eyes and carefully monitors what Theravada did over the centuries, they willfully changed earlier established words of the Buddha to support new agendas. This is no small matter. In the case of VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana), it has huge implications on how people practice meditation, as one example.

I don't see why adding to verse (Snp 1.11) would be any more difficult to corrupt than any other type of willful textual corruption, other than they would need to match the meter, style, etc.

People need to open their eyes and pay attention when Theravadans are re writing the word of the Buddha. If you don't stand your ground, then the corruption of Dharma just continues to get worse over time.

Another example, at the 6th council, Mahasi Sayadaw replaced MN 10 satipatthana, with DN 22 maha satipatthana. That is no small change. If you compare with the version of satipatthana preserved in the Abhidhamma pitaka, it's a far smaller and focused version of satipatthana.

Volo wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:03 pm
frank k wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:04 am
I count 30 in Snp 1.1.
How do you get 32?
Snp 1.1 doesn't list the body parts. If you mean Snp 1.11, then I've never said it contains 32 parts, please read carefully. My point was that there is nothing alien to early texts in counting brain among body parts and as an object for loathsomeness meditation.
Yes, KN Snp is in general very early EBT, but there's nothing to stop unscrupulous Dhamma corruptors from adding or modifying the early texts.
In Snp 1.11 brain is mentioned as a part of the verses, which is not easy to modify.
example: in a few suttas (happens in about 3 suttas I think) in MN where at the conclusion, 60 disciples become arahants after listening to the Buddha give a talk, in the MA parallel, it doesn't mention that. That's not a minor detail that a sutta reciter would be likely to forget! Another sutta in the MN 100's, where it talks about the merit of donating requisites to bhikkhus, even ones who are corrupt. In the MA parallel, it does not have that! Very obvious the Theravadans added that self serving detail to encourage lay people to support the entire sangha, and not only the sangha members who kept the vinaya purely.
What does the above have to do with the brain as an object of the meditation on the loathsomeness?
Last edited by frank k on Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

frank k
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by frank k » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:52 pm

jabalí wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:11 am
The list of 32 parts is an example, not an incantation. There is nothing wrong with reflecting in another order or on other parts.
You're missing the big picture. Of course it doesn't matter if there's 25, 28, 31, 32, or 550 body parts. The issue here is corruption of Dharma, and people need to take a stand and preserve the earliest agreed upon words of the Buddha that we have access to. If you don't, which is what happened historically, then you get various schools of Abhidharma which share some common denominators but evolved quite differently, and Mahayana, Vajrayana, and who knows how many more yanas before Buddhism becomes completely unrecognizable.

At least some of the other Abhidharma schools were honest and attributed authorship to disciples of the Buddha. Whereas Theravada created a fairy tale that the Buddha actually taught Abhidhamma and passed it down through Sariputta, and Theravadins take that fairy tale literally, they believe Abhdhamma is the word of the Buddha.

Mahayanists believe that a month after the 1st council where the arahants gathered to recite and consolidate the suttas, then they secretly convened another council to do the same for the Mahayana sutras.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

User avatar
Volo
Posts: 886
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: STED 31asb: 31 flavors of asubha, 31 body parts

Post by Volo » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:35 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:45 pm
The main point here is if one opens their eyes and carefully monitors what Theravada did over the centuries, they willfully changed earlier established words of the Buddha to support new agendas. This is no small matter. In the case of VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana), it has huge implications on how people practice meditation, as one example.

I don't see why adding to verse (Snp 1.11) would be any more difficult to corrupt than any other type of willful textual corruption, other than they would need to match the meter, style, etc.

People need to open their eyes and pay attention when Theravadans are re writing the word of the Buddha. If you don't stand your ground, then the corruption of Dharma just continues to get worse over time.

Another example, at the 6th council, Mahasi Sayadaw replaced MN 10 satipatthana, with DN 22 maha satipatthana. That is no small change. If you compare with the version of satipatthana preserved in the Abhidhamma pitaka, it's a far smaller and focused version of satipatthana.
I'm not even asking what reasons you have to question the verse in Snp 1.11 or what could possibly prevent the Theravada illuminati from simply adding the word "brain" to the usual stock phrase of 32/31 parts. It seems we got our own theravada conspiracy theory. :spy:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests