⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

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frank k
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⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by frank k » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... hana.html

excerpt:

ajahm brahm's redefinition:
... Because of the perfect one-pointedness and fixed
attention, one loses the faculty of perspective within jhāna. Comprehension relies on comparison—relating this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhāna, all that is perceived is an unmoving, enveloping, nondual bliss that allows no space for the arising of perspective....

Compare ⛔ABRJ with ✅☸EBT 3rd jhāna
(STED 3rd Jhāna)
🚫😁 pītiyā ca virāgā
🚫😁(with) Rapture ** fading,
👁 upekkhako ca viharati
👁 Equanimously-observing ** (he) dwells,
(S&S🐘💭) sato ca sam-pajāno,
(S&S🐘💭) (he is a) Rememberer, (a) lucid-discerner,
🙂🚶 sukhañca kāyena paṭi-saṃ-vedeti,
🙂🚶 pleasure with-the-body (he) experiences,
yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti —
that those Noble-Ones declare -
‘upekkhako satimā sukha-vihārī’ti
“(He is an) equanimous-observer (and a) Rememberer, (he has) pleasurable-abiding.”
🌖 tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
🌖 third Jhāna (he) enters, dwells.


And unlike ABRJ, where one is "frozen", in EBT jhāna, one can investigate
STED S&S💭 definition custom built for in-jhāna usage
Now look in AN 4.41, the 4 developments of samadhi sutta, and once again you see the same definition of sampajano as in SN 47.35, the one that fits jhāna perfectly in terms of the most obvious things one would investigate from such a still and refined state of mind.]
http://www.audtip.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Audio Sutta Recordings

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: ⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:58 pm

Ajahn Brahm's jhana is as described in the Visuddhimagga. It's not Ajahn Brahm's redefinition, it was defined that way more than one thousand years ago.

Your argument is not original, and has been discussed many times on this forum.

Also, he speaks from his personal experience of jhana.
Do you speak from your experience of jhana, or intellectual argument?

thang
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Re: ⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by thang » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:23 pm

Something related:
MN 64: Mahā-Māluŋkya Sutta [Of Bursting Bonds Asunder]
so that he develops and dwells in the First Ecstasy ..
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory,
as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..

Rising above observation and reflection, the Almsman enters on, and abides in, the Second Ecstasy ...
Whatsoever occurs as a visible shape, or feeling, or perception, or factors of being, - all such mental phenomena he regards as transitory, as Ill, as disease, as pustulences, as pangs, as anguish, as maladies, as extraneous, as fleeting, as hollow, as non-self. ..
And then follow the Third and Fourth Ecstasies. ..
Whatsoever occurs as a ....
Rising next altogether beyond perception of the visible, .. develops, and abides in, the plane of infinite space,
Whatsoever occurs as a ....
and, in succession, the plane of infinite mind.
Whatsoever occurs as a ....
Is this seeing/regarding a contemplation?
Is this seeing/regarding/contemplation done inside the jhana or outside?
What are the objects of this seeing/regarding/contemplation? (jhana factors or something else?)

How this contradicts or follows Ajahn Brahm's explanation?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

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budo
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Re: ⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by budo » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:08 pm

:goodpost:

According to the suttas Jhanas 1 to 7 are "perception" based, only 8th jhana is not perception based, so you don't lose perception nor mindfulness.

frank k
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Re: ⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by frank k » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:03 pm

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Hopefully you're not trying to say two wrongs make a right?
✅☸EBT jhāna, is a different type of samadhi than ⛔ABRJ and ⛔VRJ (vism.).
All of those samadhi systems work as advertised, but they have distinct qualitative differences.
It's not ok for ⛔VRJ (vism.) to redefine jhana and then claim it's the same jhana the Buddha teaches.
And it's definitely not ok for Ajahn Brahm to claim ⛔ABRJ is what the Buddha meant by ✅☸EBT jhāna.

It's really quite shocking that those claims are tolerated at all.
The problem isn't that some Buddhists prefer a different samadhi system than the one the Buddha taught.
The problem is that by inappropriately naming it the same as ✅☸EBT jhāna, it's horribly confusing to the rest of the world,
especially newbies.
If one prefers ⛔ABRJ, that's fine, but one should be clear it's not the same as ✅☸EBT jhāna.

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:58 pm
Ajahn Brahm's jhana is as described in the Visuddhimagga. It's not Ajahn Brahm's redefinition, it was defined that way more than one thousand years ago.

Your argument is not original, and has been discussed many times on this forum.

Also, he speaks from his personal experience of jhana.
Do you speak from your experience of jhana, or intellectual argument?
http://www.audtip.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Audio Sutta Recordings

frank k
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Simile of jhāna mountain: ✅☸EBT jhāna, ⛔ABRJ, ⛔VRJ

Post by frank k » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:03 pm

Simile of jhāna mountain: ✅☸EBT jhāna, ⛔ABRJ, ⛔VRJ
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... abrj.html

excerpt:
⛔VRJ (Vism. Re-definition of Jhāna)
⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna, same as Vism. Redefinition without abhidhamma theory)
Ajahn Brahm (Brahmavamso)

The Buddha has a sign that points to ✅🌄jhāna mountain of MN 125. The Buddha promised a gradual path, and this includes jhāna samādhi. So the mountain has switchbacks, a gradually elevated path that spirals around the mountain, gently leading to the mountain peak. Anyone can climb this trail - young, old, experienced, inexperienced.

Buddhaghosa comes along, swaps out the sign that points to ✅🌄jhāna mountain to point to a different mountain, which we'll call ⛔VRJ 🌄.
...

A thousand years pass, and then Ajahn Brahm comes along...
http://www.audtip.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Audio Sutta Recordings

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: ⛔ABRJ (Ajahn Brahm Re-definition of Jhāna) compared to ✅☸EBT jhāna

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:04 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:03 pm
It's really quite shocking that those claims are tolerated at all.
Yes, what we need in this world is less tolerance. That'll fix things. Maybe a central authority that has the power to censor dissidents, maybe a few excommunications or imprisonment. Shall we use the noose, or a stake and bonfire?

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DooDoot
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Re: Simile of jhāna mountain: ✅☸EBT jhāna, ⛔ABRJ, ⛔VRJ

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:06 am

frank k wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:03 pm
The Buddha has a sign that points to ✅🌄jhāna mountain of MN 125. The Buddha promised a gradual path, and this includes jhāna samādhi. So the mountain has switchbacks, a gradually elevated path that spirals around the mountain, gently leading to the mountain peak. Anyone can climb this trail - young, old, experienced, inexperienced.
I don't recall the suttas ever saying the above. The above sutta mentioned itself says:
Prince Jayasena dwells in the midst of sensual pleasures, enjoying them, consumed by thoughts of them, burning with fever for them, and eagerly seeking more. It’s simply impossible for him to know or see or realize what can only be known, seen, and realized by renunciation.
:alien:
frank k wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm
ajahm brahm's redefinition:
My impression is Ajahn Brahm has not redefined jhana. For example, later he says:
Great Mindfulness, Clear Knowing and Equanimity. As with many
jhanas, the experiences are next to impossible to describe. However, the
higher the jhana, the more profound the experience and he more difficult
it becomes to put into words. These states as their language are remote
from the world. At a stretch, one may say that the bliss of the third
jhana, the sukha, has a greater sense of ease, quieter and more serene.
In the suttas, it is accompanied by the features of mindfulness (sati),
clear knowing (sampojanna) and equanimity (upekkha)
, although these
qualities are said in the Anupada Sutta (MN 111) to be present in all
jhanas
. Perhaps these features are emphasized in the sutta as qualities
of the thirds jhana in order to point out that in these very deep jhanas,
one is exceptionally mindful, very clear in the knwing, and so still that
one looks on without moving, which is the root meaning of equanimity
(upekkha).

https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf
:alien:
frank k wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 pm
... Because of the perfect one-pointedness and fixed
attention, one loses the faculty of perspective within jhāna. Comprehension relies on comparison—relating this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhāna, all that is perceived is an unmoving, enveloping, nondual bliss that allows no space for the arising of perspective....
My impression is the above by AB is both unnecessary (excessive) & poorly articulated. However, if we search the book, we may possibly find what AB really means here.
What is happening here is that perception struggles to interpret such a
pure mental phenomena. Perception is that function of mind that
interprets experience in terms one can understand. Perception relies
crucially on comparison, interpreting experience as in the same category
as some similar previous experience. However, pure mental phenomena
are rare so rarely visited that perception has great difficulty finding
anything at all comparable to these new experiences. This is why
nimittas appear strange, like nothing one has ever experienced before.
However, the phenomena in the catalogue of one’s past experiences
which usually come closest to these nimitta are simple visual lights,
such as a car headlight or a flashlight in the dark or the full moon in the
night sky. So perception adopts this closest, but imperfect, comparison
and interprets the nimitta as lights. Thus, one usually experiences
nimitta as a light, a light seen in the mind.

It was a fascinating discovery to realize that everyone who experiences
these nimittas, experience exactly the same thing! It is only that
meditators interpret one and the same experience in different ways.
Some see in their mind the nimitta as a pure white light, others see it as
a golden, some as a deep blue. Some see it as a circle, some as oblong in
shape, some as sharp edged, some as fuzzy edged. There is indeed no
end to the features of nimitta, which meditators describe. The important
thing to know is that color, shape and so on are irrelevant. Because it is
one’s perception that colors the nimitta and gives it shape, just so one
can make sense of it.

https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf
In other words, when AB uses the English words "perspective & comprehension", it appears obvious he is not referring to sampajanna (clear-comprehension).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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