Meditation - Duration vs Quality

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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alfa
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Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by alfa » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:35 pm

:namaste:

Most people, including famous Buddhist scholars, would say that quality of meditation is more important than how long you meditate.

But isn't this completely untrue?

It takes many minutes, if not hours, of sustained concentration to develop jhana.

Just one minute of quality meditation won't do.

Many hours of sustained practice is required.

So isn't it true that duration matters much more than so-called quality?
:anjali:

Laurens
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Laurens » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:31 pm

I'd say quality actually matters less.

There is no such thing as bad meditation. So long as you are sitting with the intention to bring your mind back to the meditation object, you cannot do it wrong or badly. There might be sessions when it seems to be going badly because of the number of times you have to do this, but bringing the attention back, and the moment of realisation that you have lost your object is one of the best trainings for the mind.

Thus all you can do is increase the duration.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:10 pm

Quality is very Important!

What's the use of staying 2 hours reliving the past, planning the future, strengthening the shackles?

It is also important to bring the quality of Meditation during the Day

:anjali:
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Srilankaputra
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Srilankaputra » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:13 pm

I guess it's like any skill. First we have to expend a lot of effort and energy to learn. Then it becomes easy and natural. It is said Ajahn chah could enter the forth jhana within one breath.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Laurens
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Laurens » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:10 pm
Quality is very Important!

What's the use of staying 2 hours reliving the past, planning the future, strengthening the shackles?

It is also important to bring the quality of Meditation during the Day

:anjali:
What defines quality?

Generally when you sit down to meditate your mind will go to those things you mentioned automatically. Sitting with the intention to not allow those things to come up is destined to fail, and thus leads to frustration when they inevitably come up.

Surely the most useful measure for the quality of meditation is the strength of one's intention to return to the meditation object once the realisation has occurred that the mind has wandered? This allows for the mind to wander without making this inevitable occurrence a mark of failure or lack of quality.

If you sit for 2 hours, and the mind wanders 500 times to the past, the future etc. so long as the resolve is there to return to the meditation object once you notice, then you have some level of success and that time has been useful.

I don't think characterising the inevitable wanderings of the mind as lack of quality in meditation is useful to people, it makes the inevitable seem like a failure and will make one prone to frustration at something which;---unless you are extremely adept----is destined to happen often.

If the intention and resolve is there to return to the meditation object, and the meditator does so as often as they realise their mind has drifted then the meditation has been of some use, and can be described as being of good quality.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

constellation
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by constellation » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:43 pm

Samatha and Vipassanā Need to Be Developed

The Buddha explains that the practice by which the four Noble Truths are understood is samatha and vipassanā. But there is no sutta where The Buddha explains, 'This is samatha', or 'This is vipassanā', or 'To practise samatha, one needs to do such and such', or 'To practise vipassanā, one needs to do such and such'. So to understand what The Buddha means by development of samatha and vipassanā, we need to refer to the commentaries and subcommentaries, especially the Visuddhi∙Magga.

Thus, for example, in the 'Abhiññā' sutta of the Aṅguttara∙Nikāya, The Buddha says:
In also A.IV.V.vi.1 'Abhiññā∙Suttaṃ' ('The Direct-Knowledge Sutta'), The Buddha explains that samatha/vipassanā need to be developed by direct knowledge. aa Vipassanā is the insight knowledge of formations apprehension (saṅkhāra∙pariggaha∙vipassanā∙ñāṇaṃ) (= materiality-/mentality apprehension = apprehending ultimate materiality/ultimate mentality/their causes): aṭ seeing the various types of aspect (vividhen∙ākārena) of impermanence, etc. ( anicc∙ādinā) (+ suffering/non-self).

And what, bhikkhus, are the things that need to be developed by direct knowledge?
Samatha and vipassanā (samatho ca vipassanā ca): these, bhikkhus, are called the things that need to be developed.

The Aṅguttara∙Nikāya commentary then explains that development of samatha by direct knowledge means to develop mental one pointedness (citt∙ek∙aggatā), which corresponds to concentration (samādhi). This corresponds then to what in the Visuddhi∙Magga is called mind purification (citta∙visuddhi), and is explained as the first, second, third, and fourth fine-material jhānas, plus the four immaterial jhānas, which altogether are called the eight attainments (aṭṭha samāpattiyo). They are all types of absorption concentration (appanā∙samādhi). Mind purification includes also access concentration (upacāra∙samādhi), by which is meant deep concentration that is similar to the concentration that immediately precedes jhāna concentration.

In DhS.I.1 'Kām∙Āvacara∙Kusalaṃ' ('The Sensual-Sphere Wholesome'), listing various mental factors that arise as couples, The Buddha includes samatha and vipassanā. DhSA.I.iii.1 'Passaddh∙Ādi∙Yugala∙Vaṇṇanā' ('Description of the Tranquillity, Etc. Couple') E.173 explains: 'Samatha is that which calms the adverse pfoenomena (paccanīka∙dhammānaṃ) of sensual desire etc.(kāma∙cchand∙ādayo).... Vipassanā is that which sees phenomena in their various aspects (vividhehi ākārehi) by way of impermanence, etc. (anicc∙ādi∙vasena). It is just wisdom in meaning (paññ∙āv∙esā atthato).... Here, they [samatha/vipassanā] are taken as yoked together (yugan∙addha∙vasena).'

VsM.xviii.662 'Diṭṭhi∙Visuddhi∙Niddeso' ('View-Purification Description') PP.xviii.1-2

The Aṅguttara∙Nikāya commentary also explains that development of vipassanā is to develop insight knowledge of the many types of formation: that means understanding ultimate materiality and mentality and their causes with one's own direct knowledge. Subsequent to such understanding, one needs then to understand those phenomena's aspects of impermanence (aniccā), suffering (dukkhā), and non-self (an∙attā). When we classify the gradual training as the seven purifications, vipassanā is then the five purifications that follow morality purification and mind purification: vipassanā begins with view purification (diṭṭhi∙visuddhi) and ends with knowledge&vision purification (ñāṇa∙dassana∙visuddhi).

Thus, only by referring to such authoritative texts can we then understand that when The Buddha in such and such a sutta speaks of concentration, the jhānas, development of lovingkindness, or the kasiṇas, He is in fact talking about samatha. In the same way, we can understand that when The Buddha in such and such a sutta speaks of contemplating the five aggregates, their origination and extinction; when He speaks of one's having directly and fully to know the five aggregates; when He speaks of seeing the impermanence, suffering, and non-self nature of the five aggregates, etc., He is talking about vipassanā.

Samatha — Vipassanā

Then, for example, when we read The Buddha explain the bhikkhu's training to King Ajātasattu, in the 'Sāmañña∙Phala∙Sutta' of the Dīgha∙Nikāya, we may understand that even though He does not mention the words 'samatha' and 'vipassanā', He in fact describes the bhikkhu's practice of those two things.

Meditation (Contemplation)

What what does it mean, the word, meditation, according to the individual characteristics, function, manifestation, and proximate cause?

Knowledge actualization.

How does it work? What does it work? When does it work? Why does it work? Where does it work?

Connection actualization.

What what does it mean, the word, connection, according to the individual characteristics, function, manifestation, and proximate cause?

Enlightenment, one should investigate with wisdom. Because The light of wisdom, Enlightenment.

1. One should be mindful of the architecture and let it enlighten the scenography.

2. One should be mindful of the architecture and let it enlighten the scenography. It is likewise to walk in the room where is total darkness: we need the light there, to be able to see whatever.

3. One should be mindful of the architecture and let it enlighten the scenography. It is likewise to walk in the light where is total darkness: we need the architecture and scenography there, to be able to see whatever. One should be mindful of the architecture and let it enlighten the scenography. It is likewise to walk in the room where is total emanating (radiating, raying) darkness: we need the light of wisdom there, to be able to see whatever.

Does it make sense, the architecture, foundations of mindfulness? Does it make sense, scenography, the factors of enlightenment? What what does it mean, the word, actualization, according to the individual characteristics, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? Meditation - Duration vs Quality??

================

Suppose, friend Uttiya, there was a royal town on the farthest border, with solid foundations, strong walls and turrets, and one gate (eka·dvāraṃ).

The gatekeeper there was wise, able, and clever: the unknown were refused, the known admitted. He followed the path encircling the whole town. Following the path encircling the whole town, he would not see a joint in the wall or an opening in the wall even for a cat's egress.

There might not be such knowledge as: 'So many creatures enter or leave this town'. But such [knowledge] there would be: 'Any whatsoever large creatures that enter or leave this town, they all enter or leave through the gate.'

So too, friend Uttiya, such is not the Tathāgata's concern: 'The whole world is led out by it, or half, or a third part.'

But such for the Tathāgata there is [concern]:

'Anyone whatsoever who from the world were led out, are led out, or will be led out, they all [were led out, are led out, or will be led out]
'having abandoned the five hindrances (which are mental defilements, weakeners of wisdom);
'with mind well-founded in the four foundations of mindfulness (catūsu sati·paṭṭhānesu), having developed the seven enlightenment factors according to reality.

'Thus they from the world were led out, are led out, or will be led out.'

A.X.II.v.5 'Uttiya·Suttaṃ' ('The Uttiya Sutta')

================

For example, after concentrating on your breath in this manner for at least half an hour, you should go on to the first and second stage of the meditation: understanding the breath as long or short.

After concentrating on your breath in this manner for at least half an hour, you should go on to the first and second stage of the meditation: understanding the breath as long or short?

Samatha Meditation

(From 'The In&Out-Breath Section' of the 'Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna Sutta')
D.II.9 (§374)/M.I.i.10 (§107) 'Mmahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna∙Suttaṃ' ('The Great Mindfulness-Foundation Sutta') (My—D.2.231-232/ M.1.70-71)

Ever Mindful He Breathes In, Ever Mindful He Breathes Out

In the 'In&Out-Breath Section' of the 'Mahā∙Sati∙Paṭṭhāna Sutta', The Buddha begins by describing where the bhikkhu goes to meditate, and how he sits down to meditate:

And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating the body in the body (kāye kāyānupassī viharati)?

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu (gone to the forest, or gone to the foot of a tree, or gone to a secluded place) sits down, having crossed his legs, set his body straight, having mindfulness established [on the in&out-breath] before him (parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā).

Ever mindful he breathes in (sat∙ova assasati); ever mindful he breathes out (sat∙ova passasati).


This is ān∙āpāna∙ssati (mindfulness of breathing): meditation taking as object the in&out-breath (ān∙āpāna), for the development of jhāna.

To begin meditating, you should sit in a comfortable position, and try to be aware of the breath as it enters and leaves your body through the nostrils. Just be aware of the breath at the most obvious place, where it brushes against or touches either the top of the upper lip or somewhere around the nostrils. That place is what we call the touching point (phuṭṭh∙okāsa): the point where you can feel the breath passing in and out of the nostrils. The breath is to be understood only at the touching point.

Concentrate on the breath in this way, without thinking about anything else: only the breath. If your mind wanders frequently, you may help it stay with the breath by noting: when knowing the in&out-breath, note it as: 'breathing in — breathing out', 'breathing in — breathing out', etc., 'in — out', 'in — out', etc.

Four Typical Difficulties

Practising in this way, some meditators encounter difficulties. The typical difficulties are four:

1) Concentrating on the breath with one's eyes: do not use your eyes to see the breath. If you do, your eyes will get tired, and a lot of tension will appear around your eyes, or around your face or head. So please concentrate at all times on the breath with your mind alone.

2) Following the breath into the nostrils: when your concentration improves, your breath will become subtle. This is natural. And at that time your breath will become clearer inside your nostrils. What will actually be clearer to you is the wind element's characteristic of pushing. If you follow your breath into your nostrils, and concentrate on the wind element's characteristic of pushing for a long time, then the earth element's characteristic of hardness, and the water element's characteristic of cohesion, will also become clear. Instead of concentrating on the breath, you may then concentrate on those three characteristics: the pushing, hardness, and cohesion of the four elements. In that case, you are no longer practising ān∙āpāna∙ssati meditation, but four-elements meditation. If you practise four-elements meditation in that way, your whole face or your whole head will slowly become harder and harder. Then, whenever you close your eyes to meditate, you will be welcomed by much tension. So when your breath becomes subtle, you should not follow your breath into the nostrils, because it is clearer there. Please wait for your breath to become clear again at your nostrils or upper lip.

3) Concentrating too much on the skin: do not concentrate too much on the skin of your nostrils or upper lip.
Why not? Because by concentrating too much on the skin, again you will be concentrating on the four elements of the skin instead of the breath. Again, your meditation will move towards four-elements meditation, away from ān∙āpāna∙ssati.

4) Biting one's teeth together: while concentrating deeply on the breath, you may unconsciously bite your teeth together. Then again, a lot of tension will appear in your face. So please keep your teeth a little bit apart.

If you make sure not to do any of these four things, and just calmly concentrate on your in&out-breath, without allowing your mind to wander, then you will be able to develop and perfect your concentration.

That is the meaning of The Buddha's introduction:

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu (gone to the forest, or gone to the foot of a tree, or gone to a secluded place) sits down, having crossed his legs, set his body straight, having mindfulness established [on the in&out-breath] before him.

Ever mindful he breathes in (sat∙ova assasati); ever mindful he breathes out (sat∙ova passasati).


After concentrating on your breath in this manner for at least half an hour, you should go on to the first and second stage of the meditation: understanding the breath as long or short.

Breathing In Long, Breathing In Short

[1] Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long (dīghaṃ assasāmi);'
breathing out long, he understands: 'I breathe out long (dīghaṃ passasām).'

[2] Breathing in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short (rassaṃ assasāmi);'
breathing out short, he understands: 'I breathe out short (rassaṃ passasāmi).'

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but length in time: the duration of the breath; the extent of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

VsM.viii.219 ‘Ān∙Āpāna∙Ssati∙Kathā’ (‘Discussion of Mindfulness-of-Breathing’) (My―1.263) explains how the extent of the breath can be either spatial (in terms of space) or temporal (in terms of time). VsMT.ibid.(My—1.320) explains that only the temporal extent is to be considered.

<the touching point only: see quotation from (Insight Knowledge) under 'Experiencing The Whole Body Of Breath', page point see wing.>

You should decide for yourself what duration you will call 'long' and 'short'. You will notice that sometimes the duration of the breath is long, sometimes short. Just knowing this is all you have to do at this stage. Please do not note, 'In-out-long, in-out-short': just 'In-out', and be aware of whether the breaths are long or short. Sometimes the breath may be long throughout the sitting, and sometimes short, but you must not purposely try to make it long or short.

The Skilled Lathe-Worker Or Lathe-Worker's Apprentice

To describe the bhikkhu's understanding of the breath as long and short, The Buddha uses the simile of the lathe worker (bhama∙kāro):

Just as, bhikkhus, a skilled lathe-worker or lathe-worker's apprentice, making a long turn, he understands: 'I make a long turn', making a short turn, he understands: 'I make a short turn.' In the same way, bhikkhus,

[1] Breathing in long, he [the bhikkhu] understands: 'I breathe in long (dīghaṃ assasāmi);'
breathing out long, he understands: 'I breathe out long (dīghaṃ passasāmi).'

[2] Breathing in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short (rassaṃ assasāmi);'
breathing out short, he understands: 'I breathe out short (rassaṃ passasāmi).'


Now, the irritation of not being emerged inside (insight knowledge) the duration is in the accordance with reality, The Noble Truth of Suffering Needs to Be Fully Known, The Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering Needs to Be Abandoned, The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering Needs to Be Realized, The Noble Truth of the Practice Leading to the Cessation of Suffering Needs to Be Developed.

Now, the irritation of not being emerged inside (insight knowledge) the duration is in the accordance with quality.

Now, the irritation of not being emerged inside (insight Toward now {Experiencing the whole body} edge) the duration is in the accordance with quality.

Now, the Tranquillizing the body formation of not being emerged inside (insight knowledge) the duration is in the accordance with quality.

Now, the Tranquillizing the body formation of not being emerged inside (insight Toward now {Experiencing the whole body} edge) the duration is in the accordance with quality.

The first aggregate is form/body (rūpa) (based on the image of corporeality, so imaged (rendered), being figurativeness (symbolic character)). Rūpa literally means picture or image because it is the object of eye-consciousness (cakkhuviññāna). Common translations of rūpa include form and body (shell). Every one of us has a body. If the body is short, you say, “I am short.” If the body is beautiful you say, “I am beautiful.” If the body is sick, you say, “I am sick.” So you can see how easily we associate the body with the ‘self.’

One consciousness knows the touching-point sign, another consciousness knows the in-breath, and yet another consciousness knows the out-breath. So one consciousness knows only one thing: the sign, the in-breath, or the out-breath. But to succeed, you need to know all three at the same time: the sign as well as the in-breath as well as the out-breath, all at the same time. That is why the Paṭisambhidā∙Magga then says:

VsM.viii.231 ‘Ān∙Āpāna∙Ssati∙Kathā’ (‘Discussion of Mindfulness-of-Breathing’) (My—1.276) explains: 'And here only one is the in-breath consciousness (aññam∙eva assās∙ārammaṇaṃ cittaṃ), another the out-breath consciousness (aññaṃ passās∙ārammaṇaṃ), another the sign consciousness (aññaṃ nimitt∙ārammaṇaṃ). Indeed, to the one in whom there are not these three phenomena (tayo dhammā n∙atthi), to such a one the meditation subject (kamma∙ṭṭhānaṃ) neither absorption (neva appanaṃ) nor access (na upacāraṃ) reaches (pāpuṇāti). But to the one in whom there are these three phenomena, to such a one the meditation subject both access (upacārañ∙ca) and absorption (appanañ∙ca) reaches.'

Nimittaṃ assāsa∙passāsā, an∙ārammaṇam∙eka∙cittassa;
Jānato ca tayo dhamme, bhāvanā upalabbhatīti.

The sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not the object of one consciousness;
One knowing these three things, development gains.

The first aggregate is form/body (sign) (based on the image of corporeality, so imaged (rendered), being figurativeness (symbolic character)). Sign literally means picture or image because it is the object of consciousness (“sense” viññāna, consciousness ~ sense awareness). Common translations of sign include form and body (shell). Every one of us has a sign. If the sign is short, you say, “I am short.” If the sign is beautiful you say, “I am beautiful.” If the sign is sick, you say, “I am sick.” So you can see how easily we associate the body with the ‘sign.’

Then please listen to the Visuddhi∙Magga subcommentary:

VsMṬ.viii.219 ‘Ān∙Āpāna∙Ssati∙Kathā∙Vaṇṇanā’ (‘Description of the Discussion of Mindfulness-of-Breathing’) (M—1.319)

Assāsa∙passāse nissāya uppanna∙nimittam∙p∙ettha assāsa∙passāsasam∙aññam∙eva vuttaṃ.
It is said that since it is dependent on the in&out-breath, the arisen sign may also be called just the in&out-breath.

So, when your concentration on the breath is very deep and stable, the in&out-breath and the sign become one: your mind knows those three things at the same time. And as you develop your concentration further, eventually you may attain the moment of full absorption.

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but length in time: the duration (shell) of the breath; the extent sign of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but sign collarette: the duration (shell) of the breath; the extent sign of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but (The Collarette of other moment (thy) giving me subsequence (of tyself) causes eagerness thereat acts me): the duration (shell) of the breath; the extent sign of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but absorption: the duration (shell) of the breath; the extent sign of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

VsM.viii.219 ‘Ān∙Āpāna∙Ssati∙Kathā’ (‘Discussion of Mindfulness-of-Breathing’) (My―1.263) explains how the extent of the breath can be either spatial (in terms of space) or temporal (in terms of time). VsMT.ibid.(My—1.320) explains that only the temporal extent sign is to be considered.

<the touching point only: see quotation from (Insight Knowledge) under 'Experiencing The Whole Body Of Breath', page point see wing.>

You should decide for yourself what duration you will call 'long' and 'short'. You will notice that sometimes the shell of the breath is long, sometimes short. Just knowing this is all you have to do at this stage. Please do not note, 'In-out-long, in-out-short': just 'Center the (page point see wing) (In-out) sign', and be aware (keeping mindfulness and awareness together) of whether the breaths are long or short. Sometimes the breath may be long throughout the sign rendering, and sometimes short, but you must not purposely try to make it long or short. Do not try to involve inside the irritation, just let it be, no awaiting – empty self, nothing exceeds nothing missing – empty sign, just waiting ...rendering process… please wait … (courtesy) Access to the Breath (courtesy — nattiness) … ān·āpāna·suñño·sati paññ·āloko. The Greatest Friendship.

* idappaccayatā-paṭiccasamuppādo (conditionality-dependent arising) upādāna (clinging, attachment) paññati realm ( concepts )( surjective reality )

ān·āpāna·suñño·sati paññ·āloko

* ānāpānasati (mindfulness established on an object all the time with each in and out breath)
* sati (mindfulness)(tuftfulness (tuftness(tufting)), mindfulness (cession, observation, noteness (spoting, noting)), thingfulness (observation (thingness)), accessfulness (cloak (ness)))
* paññāloko (the light of wisdom)

Here, breathing in long and breathing in short does not refer to length in feet and inches, but sitting sign: the duration (shell) of the breath; the extent sign of the breath (addhāna), as it is understood by the meditator. And, again, it is understood by way of the touching point only.

VsM.viii.219 ‘Ān∙Āpāna∙Ssati∙Kathā’ (‘Discussion of Mindfulness-of-Breathing’) (My―1.263) explains how the extent of the breath can be either spatial (in terms of space) or temporal (in terms of time). VsMT.ibid.(My—1.320) explains that only the temporal extent sign is to be considered.

<the touching point only: see quotation from (Insight Knowledge) under 'Experiencing The Whole Body Of Breath', page point see wing.>

You should decide for yourself what duration you will call 'long' and 'short'. You will notice that sometimes the shell of the breath is long, sometimes short. Just knowing this is all you have to do at this stage. Please do not note, 'In-out-long, in-out-short': just 'Center the (page point see wing) (In-out) sign', and be aware (keeping mindfulness and awareness together) of whether the breaths are long or short. Sometimes the breath may be long throughout the sign rendering, and sometimes short, but you must not purposely try to make it long or short. Do not try to involve inside the irritation, just let it be, no awaiting – empty sitting, nothing exceeds nothing missing – empty sign, just waiting ...rendering process… please wait … (courtesy) Access to the Breath (courtesy — nattiness) … ān·āpāna·suñño·sati paññ·āloko. The Greatest Friendship.

* suñño
* mindfulness established on an object
* all the time with each in and out breath
* (of) the light of wisdom (Law of Nature that was rightly enlightened by Fully Awakened, always with every in and out breath)

* idappaccayatā-paṭiccasamuppādo (conditionality-dependent arising) upādāna (clinging, attachment) paramattha sacca realm (ultimate reality)(after self feeding world, being the ultimate or basic constituents of matter (ultimate materiality) and image creativness (ultimate mentality, imagination(insight range(vipassanā·cāra))), and their causes)( subjective and objective reality )

mindfulness entered into an objective thing
always with every in and out breath

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 pm

Laurens wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:10 pm
Quality is very Important!

What's the use of staying 2 hours reliving the past, planning the future, strengthening the shackles?

It is also important to bring the quality of Meditation during the Day

:anjali:
What defines quality?

Generally when you sit down to meditate your mind will go to those things you mentioned automatically. Sitting with the intention to not allow those things to come up is destined to fail, and thus leads to frustration when they inevitably come up.

Surely the most useful measure for the quality of meditation is the strength of one's intention to return to the meditation object once the realisation has occurred that the mind has wandered? This allows for the mind to wander without making this inevitable occurrence a mark of failure or lack of quality.

If you sit for 2 hours, and the mind wanders 500 times to the past, the future etc. so long as the resolve is there to return to the meditation object once you notice, then you have some level of success and that time has been useful.

I don't think characterising the inevitable wanderings of the mind as lack of quality in meditation is useful to people, it makes the inevitable seem like a failure and will make one prone to frustration at something which;---unless you are extremely adept----is destined to happen often.

If the intention and resolve is there to return to the meditation object, and the meditator does so as often as they realise their mind has drifted then the meditation has been of some use, and can be described as being of good quality.
It is when the intention and resolution will travel along with the mind ... and this thought arises in our mind "this is not meditation".

:anjali:
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Laurens
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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by Laurens » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:59 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 pm

It is when the intention and resolution will travel along with the mind ... and this thought arises in our mind "this is not meditation".

:anjali:
Agreed :smile:
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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Re: Meditation - Duration vs Quality

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:51 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:13 pm
I guess it's like any skill. First we have to expend a lot of effort and energy to learn. Then it becomes easy and natural.
My understanding is the path is lead by wisdom (right view).
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:13 pm
It is said Ajahn chah could enter the forth jhana within one breath.
Where? Please quote? Thanks. Since the suttas (SN 36.11) say there is no breathing in the 4th jhana; how did Ajahn Chan enter the forth jhana within one breath? :shrug:
alfa wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:35 pm
So isn't it true that duration matters much more than so-called quality?
The Dhammapada says there is no jhana without wisdom and no wisdom without jhana. Thus it seems both quality & quantity are important. When there is quality, it still take a long duration to reach jhana. But if there is no quality it seems jhana will never be reached. MN 117 says right jhana is accompanied or supported by the seven other factors of the noble path.
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