Is meditation redundant?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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alfa
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Is meditation redundant?

Post by alfa »

Before impulsively saying yes or no, please read it fully.

As human beings, we are victims of the three poisons - greed, hate, delusion. As long as these remain, what good is meditation?

You cannot be greedy or cruel in the world and then expect to have a calm mind during meditation. But if you are free of the three poisons, then do you even need meditation?

This is a genuine inquiry, not some trick question. If we work on getting rid of the three poisons, shouldn't we then reach nirvana (or whatever you like to call it) even without meditating?

Or is meditation indispensable?
Srilankaputra
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Srilankaputra »

I am not a pali expert but i think bhavana literally means self development. So bhavana is indispensable.

imo

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
budo
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by budo »

There is theory and there is application. Dhamma and meditation. By suppressing the 5 hinderances you are suppressing the 3 poisons which is giving you the window of opportunity to chip away at ignorance.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

If you get through the first seven steps of the Noble Eightfold Path first, the need for Samma Samadhi will be self-evident.

If you don't get through the first seven steps of the Noble Eightfold Path first, then meditation is not redundant (since redundant implies replaced by something newer or better), but not necessarily all that useful either.

Your mileage may vary.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by DooDoot »

alfa wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:50 am greed/lust, hate, delusion.
3 poisons. A good person can be without hate & without greed. But lust & delusion seem to need meditation for removal. Without meditation bliss; its difficult to overcome sensual desire. Without meditation insight, its difficult to erase the delusion of self.
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Laurens
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Laurens »

Perhaps if you were an exceptional person you could rid yourself of those things without meditation, but I think most of us need it to do so
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Sharry
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Sharry »

The Noble Eightfold path itself is a training in Moral Virtue, Concentration and Insight.

Moral Virtue alone isn't enough for eradicating the causes of suffering. It is just the beginning.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Dan74-MkII »

In meditation we learn about our mind and how to overcome the Three Poisons. Sila, Samadhi, Panna are not a linear sequence, but are cultivated at the same time, IMO.
Sharry
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Sharry »

Dan74-MkII wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:45 am In meditation we learn about our mind and how to overcome the Three Poisons. Sila, Samadhi, Panna are not a linear sequence, but are cultivated at the same time, IMO.
Absolutely. Each part of the Noble Eightfold Path goes hand in hand to govern and strengthen the other.

While the Threefold training and also the Noble Eightfold path are presented in the same order, the practice is one of cultivating what is necessary for that time.
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Manopubbangama »

alfa wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:50 am Before impulsively saying yes or no, please read it fully.

As human beings, we are victims of the three poisons - greed, hate, delusion. As long as these remain, what good is meditation?

You cannot be greedy or cruel in the world and then expect to have a calm mind during meditation. But if you are free of the three poisons, then do you even need meditation?

This is a genuine inquiry, not some trick question. If we work on getting rid of the three poisons, shouldn't we then reach nirvana (or whatever you like to call it) even without meditating?

Or is meditation indispensable?
In boxing if you want to win the fight you have wake up early and run, and then later on go to the gym and put in at least 12 rounds of bagwork and sparring.

In Buddhism, if you want to realize the 4NTs, for almost all of us, meditation is necessary. Very few can hear a few utterances of the Buddha and become an arahant.
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Pondera
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Pondera »

The Eightfold Path has three divisions - Understanding, Meditation, and Virtue. Hate, lust, and ignorance are not the only impediments to virtue. Check out MN 8, for example. Here’s a quote.
Effacement
12. "But herein, Cunda, effacement should be practiced by you:[16]

(1) Others will be harmful; we shall not be harmful here — thus effacement can be done.[17]
(2) Others will kill living beings; we shall abstain from killing living beings here — thus effacement can be done.
(3) Others will take what is not given; we shall abstain from taking what is not given here — thus effacement can be done.
(4) Others will be unchaste; we shall be chaste here — thus effacement can be done.
(5) Others will speak falsehood; we shall abstain from false speech here — thus effacement can be done.
(6) Others will speak maliciously; we shall abstain from malicious speech here — thus effacement can be done.
(7) Others will speak harshly; we shall abstain from harsh speech here — thus effacement can be done.
(8) Others will gossip; we shall abstain from gossip here — thus effacement can be done.
(9) Others will be covetous; we shall not be covetous here — thus effacement can be done.
(10) Others will have thoughts of ill will; we shall not have thoughts of ill will here — thus effacement can be done.
(11) Others will have wrong views; we shall have right view here — thus effacement can be done.
(12) Others will have wrong intention; we shall have right intention here — thus effacement can be done.
(13) Others will use wrong speech; we shall use right speech here — thus effacement can be done.
(14) Others will commit wrong actions; we shall do right actions here — thus effacement can be done.
(15) Others will have wrong livelihood; we shall have right livelihood here — thus effacement can be done.
(16) Others will make wrong effort; we shall make right effort here — thus effacement can be done.
(17) Others will have wrong mindfulness; we shall have right mindfulness here — thus effacement can be done.
(18) Others will have wrong concentration; we shall have right concentration here — thus effacement can be done.
(19) Others will have wrong knowledge; we shall have right knowledge here — thus effacement can be done.
(20) Others will have wrong deliverance; we shall have right deliverance here — thus effacement can be done.
(21) Others will be overcome by sloth and torpor; we shall be free from sloth and torpor here — thus effacement can be done.
(22) Others will be agitated; we shall be unagitated here — thus effacement can be done.
(23) Others will be doubting; we shall be free from doubt here — thus effacement can be done.
(24) Others will be angry; we shall not be angry here — thus effacement can be done.
(25) Others will be hostile; we shall not be hostile here — thus effacement can be done.
(26) Others will denigrate; we shall not denigrate here — thus effacement can be done.
(27) Others will be domineering; we shall not be domineering here — thus effacement can be done.
(28) Others will be envious; we shall not be envious here — thus effacement can be done.
(29) Others will be jealous; we shall not be jealous here — thus effacement can be done.
(30) Others will be fraudulent; we shall not be fraudulent here — thus effacement can be done.
(31) Others will be hypocrites; we shall not be hypocrites here — thus effacement can be done.
(32) Others will be obstinate; we shall not be obstinate here — thus effacement can be done.
(33) Others will be arrogant; we shall not be arrogant here — thus effacement can be done.
(34) Others will be difficult to admonish; we shall be easy to admonish here — thus effacement can be done.
(35) Others will have bad friends; we shall have noble friends here — thus effacement can be done.
(36) Others will be negligent; we shall be heedful here — thus effacement can be done.
(37) Others will be faithless; we shall be faithful here — thus effacement can be done.
(38) Others will be shameless; we shall be shameful here — thus effacement can be done.
(39) Others will be without conscience; we shall have conscience here — thus effacement can be done.
(40) Others will have no learning; we shall be learned here — thus effacement can be done.
(41) Others will be idle; we shall be energetic here — thus effacement can be done.
(42) Others will be lacking in mindfulness; we shall be established in mindfulness here — thus effacement can be done.
(43) Others will be without wisdom; we shall be endowed with wisdom — thus effacement can be done.
(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.
The Buddha teaches the Eightfold path so that one can excel in all three divisions. Each division of the path depends on the others. All three are mutually dependent.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Is meditation redundant?

Post by Pondera »

Keep in mind that virtue is as much about physical action and restraint as it is about verbal fabrications and mental fabrications.

Meditating to exhaust the mental fabrications of the poisons is not anymore important than curbing the tendency to exhibit the poisons in a verbal or physical way.

We are constantly succumbing to the poisons on all three levels. Meditation goes with effort. Effort goes with action. Etc etc. The point is to recognize where and when each division of the path needs activation.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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