immediacy, ānantariya

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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auto
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immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

ānantariya

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/ā/ānantariya
ānantariya:the 'Immediacy',is a name for that concentration of mind which is associated with such insight (vipassanā,q.v.) as is present in any one of the 4 kinds of supermundane path consciousness (s. ariya-puggala),and which therefore is the cause of the immediately following consciousness as its result or 'fruition' (phala,q.v.). According to the Abhidhamma,the path (of the Sotāpanna,etc.) is generated by the insight into the impermanence,misery and impersonality of existence,flashing up at that very moment and transforming and ennobling one's nature forever.

It is mentioned under the name of ānantarika-samādhi in the Ratana Sutta (Sn. v. 22) and in Pts.M. 1,Ñāṇakathā.
also in https://suttacentral.net/an4.162/pli/ms
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, dukkhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā? Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco pakatiyāpi tibbarāgajātiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ rāgajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Pakatiyāpi tibbadosajātiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ dosajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Pakatiyāpi tibbamohajātiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ mohajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Tassimāni pañcindriyāni mudūni pātubhavanti—saddhindriyaṃ, vīriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ. So imesaṃ pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ muduttā dandhaṃ ānantariyaṃ pāpuṇāti āsavānaṃ khayāya. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā.
abhiññā - the asavanam khayaya is āsavakkhaya -lokuttara power.

I guess anantariyam is the supermundane power or a concentration of a mind where cankers are extinct.
By having weak faculties, the immediacy where cankers are extinct is sluggish, slow, silly, stupid.
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

It simply means that the path is immediately followed by the fruit (phala). Right view is gradual in its development, and itself must rely on insight for its growth, thereby showing the circular dynamic of the path. Right view has two manifestations- as a closed foundation at its current state of knowledge, or as an open entity in its evolving state.

“It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassaná) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbána. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view.”—-“Buddhist Dictionary”, Nyanatiloka.
auto
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

paul wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:33 pm It simply means that the path is immediately followed by the fruit (phala). Right view is gradual in its development, and itself must rely on insight for its growth, thereby showing the circular dynamic of the path. Right view has two manifestations- as a closed foundation at its current state of knowledge, or as an open entity in its evolving state.

“It is, however, true that a really unshakable and safe foundation to the path is provided only by right view which, starting from the tiniest germ of faith and knowledge, gradually, step by step, develops into penetrating insight (vipassaná) and thus forms the immediate condition for the entrance into the 4 supermundane paths and fruits of holiness, and for the realization of Nibbána. Only with regard to this highest form of supermundane insight, may we indeed say that all the remaining links of the path are nothing but the outcome and the accompaniments of right view.”—-“Buddhist Dictionary”, Nyanatiloka.
ok yep

weak five faculties leads slowly to immediate result.

Otherwise my current bad state could be ended if i could know the ānantariya, but fabricating immediate awareness doesn't result in ending of my tired being.
So in short i need look at the faculties what they are, becaue the state of my faculties determine the how i get to(reach) the immediately happening fruit of a path.
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

Individuals have different capacities for practice, however once any practitioner, of slow or quick development, achieves path-knowledge then fruition immediately follows. Not experiencing fruition means path-knowledge hasn't been achieved and more study is necessary.

"Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition."---AN 4.162
auto
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

i need start quit using the thought out(prolly with some authentic method) translations to words what consists of multiple words like 'patipada'.
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

In this description of the development of the physical faculties, it is shown there must be a division between what is conditioned and gross, and what is inclining towards nibbana. Any practitioner must identify and separate the qualities of practice from conditioned experience, in this way they are preparing the grounds for fruition. They should not be preoccupied with the future, but set as one polarity ("takes its stance") the qualities of practice they currently have, because the Theravada path works on dynamics, and Analayo and Thanissaro both use this term.

“The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance.”—-MN 152
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

ok,

agreeable is vitakka
disagreeable is avittaka

upekha, equanimity is at third jhana.

So its about jhana. Nice.

it seem anantara and anuttara are at the same place. Asavas destroyed is upekkha achieved and that event is named unexcelled or unsurpassed

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/anuttara

Anuttara,(adj.) [an + uttara] “nothing higher”
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

“And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.’" —-MN 152

Do not cling to individual words like equanimity, what the sutta is trying to communicate is a sense of the practice at any level, as contrasted with conditioned experience, and that is a broad perception, not a specific one. MN 121 demonstrates a progression from a narrow conception of space to an expansive one; The dimensions of Mastery in DN 16 show a development from narrow wavelengths of light to broad ones; whatever subject area it is in, the progression in tranquility meditation is always in one direction, from narrow to expansive mental states. Insight however is in the opposite direction.
auto
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

that's another interesting thing that it talks about compounded and equanimity as not compounded.

So i guess there is two eyes, two ears etc, and their object is one, therefore object is compounded.


What is the word 'compounded' mean?
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

Compound= a thing that is composed of two or more separate elements; a mixture. Samsara is diverse, nibbana is unchanging and singular. The word papanca refers to the 'diffuseness' or 'manifoldness' of the world, and the mental attitude of worldliness. The opposite term nippapanca is a name for nibbana, or 'freedom from samsaric diffuseness'.

'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-objectification, who delights in non-objectification, not for one who enjoys & delights in objectification.'---AN 8.30
This includes the tendency (driven by self) to seize on words like 'equanimity' (objectification), rather than having the skill to see the general sense of the sutta.

“And that (samsara) is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this (the practice at any stage) is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.”—-MN 152

‘Compounded” means conditioned, subject to the cycle of origination, maturity, decline and death, and refers to samsara on the one hand, and is the cause of suffering (dukkha) through change, and is the condition which originally set the Buddha on his path to enlightenment. Peaceful, exquisite, equanimity, are general terms referring to practice, on the other. Even when the practice is at an elementary stage it is oriented towards nibbana, so is separate from samsara:

Equanimity is a general term encompassing all stages of practice because equanimity has different forms during the practice:

“There is equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, and there is equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness.”—MN 137

So the two, samsara and nibbana (or practice) must be separated in the mind of the practitioner, and in that way the practice takes its stance.
auto
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by auto »

paul wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:01 pm Compound= a thing that is composed of two or more separate elements; a mixture. Samsara is diverse, nibbana is unchanging and singular. The word papanca refers to the 'diffuseness' or 'manifoldness' of the world, and the mental attitude of worldliness. The opposite term nippapanca is a name for nibbana, or 'freedom from samsaric diffuseness'.

'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-objectification, who delights in non-objectification, not for one who enjoys & delights in objectification.'---AN 8.30
This includes the tendency (driven by self) to seize on words like 'equanimity' (objectification), rather than having the skill to see the general sense of the sutta.
hmm enjoying, delighting in non-objectification.

focusing on the trees and not seeing the forest. That the non-objectification is a forest. The forest is a namarupa. Namarupa has the object included but it is like an image.

the unchanging singular is namarupa. It is not part of the real world but it makes up everything you experience as real.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
So the namarupa comes to an end, then that is vinnnanam anidassam.

vinnanam anidassam has presence included, hence how the pali is written -"nam, sam" it is a mother condition what allows conditioned phenomena to appear.

this how i generalize.
paul
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

auto wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:49 pm namarupa
It is a correct conclusion that nama (literally ‘name,) is Buddhist terminology for the diffused world, as names are the starting point upon which the structure of conventional reality is based, with all its subsequent complex of institutions and laws, yet name is an arbitrary appendage to the physical reality:

“What has weighed down everything?
What is most extensive?
What is the one thing that has
All under its control?”

“Name has weighed down everything;
Nothing is more extensive than name.
Name is the one thing that has
All under its control.”—-SN 1.61 SC

Conventional reality does not come to an end upon enlightenment, but continues in parallel with it, and coming to terms with that duality is the first task of insight, called “purification of view”. That involves the practitioner's alteration of behaviour in the light of understanding that conventional reality is a truth agreed on by common consensus only, and so limited, and the subjugation of conventional reality to a subordinate position in thought and in action. This quote shows how the Buddha used terminology from conventional reality without misapprehending it:

“these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them.”—-D 9

Also the arahant uses conventional terms:

He would say, ‘I speak’;
would say, ‘They speak to me.’
Skillful,
knowing harmonious gnosis
with regard to the world,
he uses expressions
just as expressions.” SN 1.25
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Re: immediacy, ānantariya

Post by paul »

Words form the basis for the network of conventional reality. To bypass the world of names and conceptualization, the practitioner should focus on the physical characteristics of the object, and thereby experience directly its raw nature. The meditation on the physical characteristics applies to the breath, the body, the kasinas and the four elements, with their specific characteristics. Meditation on the four elements comprises one of the exercises in the first foundation of mindfulness.
This paper contains a description of the progression of meditation on the physical characteristics using the breath as example, under 'Investigation of Dhamma', chap.2:
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/box/ ... -vf10p.pdf
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