How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

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daniil
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How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by daniil »

I have been slowly advancing in my practice (mahasi sayadaw's satipattana vipassana as taught by yuttadhammo), enough to really comprehend some of the damage my own impulses do to me. And yet, I just simply can't shake off some of the destructive habits!

In the moments that I feel strong aversion to the present moment, I get drawn towards my preferred method of escape - entertainment. Wether it's shows or video games, I have an incredibly difficult time not following through on these impulses.

I had once heard a nice comparison. These destructive habits are a response to a certain type of situation and stimulus we find ourselves in. The first time we get to this crossroad - it's like walking thorough a corn field. Upon coming out you have trampled some corn and made a little pathway, such that the next time you arrive at that crossroad you will be compulsed to take the same way out.

Well, my problem is that I have been taking the entertainment pathway for the better part of my life. It is now an 8 lane highway.

Although, I really clearly see how it leads to pain in the end, I only see it on certain moments of mindfulness. Other moments I am not as mindful and walk the same path.

I know the answer here is - meditate. Continued practice has gotten me to see and confront some issues and I know it will eventually get me through to the other end. But how long does it take? I am growing really impatient and label it as much as I can, but it's hard and I'm looking for some reassurance I suppose.

How long does it take for dedicated lay practicioners to really overcome some low level destructive habits (5th precept and the entertainment precept)?

I know this is a very loose question, I just feel burnt out fighting against myself. I'm mindful like 20% of my day and during the other 80% I just cause myself suffering over and over again
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retrofuturist
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daniil wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:21 am I just feel burnt out fighting against myself.
Don't do that - that won't help.

Also, try not to demonize "entertainment" otherwise you're just creating an aversion towards it, and that's just more aversion, isn't it? Replacing "greed" with "aversion" is not a winning trade.

Relinquishment of "entertainment" generally comes about through the middle way of disenchantment.

To that end, I really think you would benefit from reading The Magic Of The Mind by ven. Nanananda. (See: The Magic Show (Kalakarama Sutta Prologue)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by SarathW »

I agree with Retro.
Just substitute your senses to start with.
-Instead of watching TV entertainment watch Dhamma video. Perhaps Ajhan Brahm Dhamma talk to start with.
- Instead of loud music listen to Sutta chanting or Dhamma talk
- Smell the sent of flowers offered to Buddha
- Eat mindfully
- Enjoy the breath sensation
- Have loving kindness thought instead of angry thoughts
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Volo
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by Volo »

Yes, it's better not to fight with defilements by using will power. One can seriously suppress them only by the power of jhāna or strong insight, and nobody can say how long would it take to attain this (for most people attaining jhāna would take from one day to one kappa). For the time being the way to go is to stop "feeding" them (sense restraint, mindfulness, etc.).
paul
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by paul »

Defilements can be suppressed using will power, it is one of the tactics available. Insight removes defilements, rather than suppressing them. There are measures for overcoming sensual desire, a practitioner should consider if they are seriously implementing them. Any form of sensual desire requires meditation on the body.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el026.html

Sensual desire cannot be overcome while being carried along by the conventional current of desire, the practitioner must implement a division between human society and their meditation, and establish seclusion both mentally and physically, going against the flow.
Last edited by paul on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Volo
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by Volo »

paul wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:05 am Insight removes defilements, rather than suppressing them.
Path (or attaining fruit if you want) removes defilements, insight can only suppress them.
SarathW
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by SarathW »

Volo wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:52 am
paul wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:05 am Insight removes defilements, rather than suppressing them.
Path (or attaining fruit if you want) removes defilements, insight can only suppress them.
What is the Pali word for insight?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Volo
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by Volo »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:18 am What is the Pali word for insight?
What I understand under it is vipassanā-ñāṇa.
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by SarathW »

Path (or attaining fruit if you want) removes defilements, insight can only suppress them.
Suppress:
This pertains to their immersion.
Idampissa hoti samādhismiṃ.

Remove defilements:
This pertains to their wisdom.
Idampissa hoti paññāya.

When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.
vimuttasmiṃ vimuttamiti ñāṇaṃ hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/dn10/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Srilankaputra
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by Srilankaputra »

paul wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:05 am Defilements can be suppressed using will power, it is one of the tactics available.
Hi paul,

Are you talking about sila?

Actually, what is the difference between suppression and sila?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by Srilankaputra »

daniil wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:21 am
I just feel burnt out fighting against myself. I'm mindful like 20% of my day and during the other 80% I just cause myself suffering over and over again
Hi daniil,

I have not gone beyond this by any means, but recently i have started noticing an interesting pattern. First the defilements tempt us with a promise of pleasant feelings. Then when we don't oblige they burn us with unpleasant mental and bodily feelings until we oblige. Afterwards they burn us with remorse. And the suggested escape, of course more sensual pleasure. A vicious cycle. When i watch out for these tricks it becomes a bit easier.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
JohnK
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by JohnK »

daniil wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:21 am In the moments that I feel strong aversion to the present moment, I get drawn towards my preferred method of escape - entertainment.
Perhaps you can sometimes be "entertained" by observing the actual experience of getting "drawn toward."
What's actually going on in the body and mind?
And what happens when you pause to observe the impulse (vs. execute).
For example, be entertained by how the conflicting characters in the mind deliver their lines.
Of course, you first need to have the intention to see the impulse and pause.
By pausing, you may break the momentum.
An impulse in the moment seems to carry an imperative of execution -- the illusion that it has to be acted on for it to resolve or pass -- a neat trick!
But you come to see by watching it instead, that it can pass w/o execution.
Which isn't to say, as I'm sure you know, that a similar impulse won't come back.
Perseverance.
Successes.
Patience.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
dharmacorps
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by dharmacorps »

when asked a similar question, Thanissaro Bhikkhu usually tells students to be aware that for many of us, enlightenment may be a multiple lifetime project. The starting point for lay people is the 5 precepts. If you can hold those, then you're on your way. For me, my practice only began to proceed after I began following the 5th precept in particular. I think people tend to gloss over that one as a minor rule, whereas for me it was critical to keeping the other 4. :anjali:
paul
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by paul »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:07 pm "Defilements can be suppressed using will power, it is one of the tactics available."
Are you talking about sila?
Right effort, where will power is required:

“Bhikkhus, there are these four right strivings. What four? (1) Here, a bhikkhu generates desire for the non-arising of unarisen bad unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (2) He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen bad unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (3) He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (4) He generates desire for the persistence of arisen wholesome states, for their non-decline, increase, expansion, and fulfillment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are the four right strivings.” —-AN 4.13 Sutta Central

On Denying Defilement:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... lement.pdf
paul
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Re: How long does it take to overcome destructive choices?

Post by paul »

I have received a PM and will publish it here as is my practice, following the Buddha's example of not conducting private discussions :

paul wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:33 am
Srilankaputra wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:07 pm
"Defilements can be suppressed using will power, it is one of the tactics available."
Are you talking about sila?


Right effort, where will power is required:

“Bhikkhus, there are these four right strivings. What four? (1) Here, a bhikkhu generates desire for the non-arising of unarisen bad unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (2) He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen bad unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (3) He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. (4) He generates desire for the persistence of arisen wholesome states, for their non-decline, increase, expansion, and fulfillment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. These are the four right strivings.” —-AN 4.13 Sutta Central

On Denying Defilement:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... lement.pdf


Thanks paul,

you give very nice sutta references. :bow:
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