voidness: signless meditation

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form
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voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

What type of meditation is this? What relations has it got to do with mindfulness or jhanas or factors of enligntenment?
budo
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by budo »

This is an advanced meditation used for attaining nibbana, Moggallana, a jhana master, had to learn it to attain nibbana.

It's signless because it's not based on any of the 5 aggregates thus it creates no nimitta.

I would not worry about this unless you have mastered the first four jhanas

The sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

Also signless and voidness (emptiness) meditation are two different meditations. Emptiness can refer to all of the formless meditations, but signless only refers to the final meditation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

Thanks for your comments.

So it is unlikely anyone in this world has attained this as it is nibanna?
budo
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by budo »

Yes, in the vimuttimagga it's defined as one of the three emancipations, although I am a little confused with how it describes them, I'm not sure if this emancipation triggers the other 2 emancipations or the other 2 emancipations are independent, it sounds like the former though.
form
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

budo wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:54 pm Yes, in the vimuttimagga it's defined as one of the three emancipations, although I am a little confused with how it describes them, I'm not sure if this emancipation triggers the other 2 emancipations or the other 2 emancipations are independent, it sounds like the former though.
I am now in the process of reading MN in details. I asked because i came across two suttas on voidness in details and i used to think voidness is same as nothingness, but now i know they are not.

By the way, now u mentioned eight emancipations, i have read the commentary notes, on wiki and in the suttas, but i am still unsure what they are describing. What do u think of them?
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by pegembara »

‘It is said, “the signless concentration of mind, the signless concentration of mind.” What now is the signless concentration of mind?’

“Then, friends, it occurred to me: ‘Here, by nonattention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind. This is called the signless concentration of mind.’

“Then, friends, by nonattention to all signs, I entered and dwelt in the signless concentration of mind.
This is where there are no more sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch or mental objects. What's left standing is only 'consciousness' without feature.
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
https://www.lionsroar.com/attending-to-the-deathless/
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User1249x
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by User1249x »

Emptiness, Signless and Voidness concentration releases are states of concentration explained by commentary to be "on the treshold of Nibbana" realized by cessation of perception and feeling.

These refer to supramundane concentration releases whereas one is absorbed in dependence of neither this world nor the next.

The difference as is explained by the commentary is in how they are apprehended, essentially referring to the same state of concentration.

Stream-Enterers also realized the cessation of the form, feeling and perception and come to know that which is not experienced thru the Allness of the All.
“Monks, there are three unwholesome thought conditions. What are the three? They are thoughts with lust, thoughts with hatred, and thoughts of harming. These three thoughts arise from perception. What perception? Perceptions of innumerable kinds: perceptions of lust, perceptions of hatred, and perceptions of harming—all unwholesome thoughts arise from this.

“Monks, perceptions of lust, perceptions of hatred, perceptions of harming, thoughts with lust, thoughts with hatred, and thoughts of harming—these are innumerable types of what is unwholesome.

“What is their complete cessation? If the mind is well settled in the four establishments of mindfulness or established in concentration on the signless. Cultivating it, much cultivating it, evil and unwholesome states will thereby cease, be forever eradicated without remainder, rightly by way of this practice.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sa272
As is seen by this discourse Signless Concentration stands on par with cessation of perception attained by means of cultivating the four frames of reference which lead to attainment of the 8FNP and Stream-Entry. However a non-stream enterer can not attain signless concentration because he has not realized the cessation by means of the attainment of the Path. Therefore attainment of cessation as a concentration release not resulting in Path attainment is only for those who have attained the cessation by means of the path.

The commentary therefore differentiates between the progression resulting in a Path attainment and the progression resulting in re-attainment of the path previously attained, the latter being the attainment of signless concentration release sometimes referred to as fruition re-attainment and the former resulting in the attainment of the four paths.
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by DooDoot »

User1249x wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:43 am
“Monks, there are three unwholesome thought conditions. What are the three? They are thoughts with lust, thoughts with hatred, and thoughts of harming. These three thoughts arise from perception. What perception? Perceptions of innumerable kinds: perceptions of lust, perceptions of hatred, and perceptions of harming—all unwholesome thoughts arise from this.

“Monks, perceptions of lust, perceptions of hatred, perceptions of harming, thoughts with lust, thoughts with hatred, and thoughts of harming—these are innumerable types of what is unwholesome.

“What is their complete cessation? If the mind is well settled in the four establishments of mindfulness or established in concentration on the signless. Cultivating it, much cultivating it, evil and unwholesome states will thereby cease, be forever eradicated without remainder, rightly by way of this practice.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sa272
The above looks like Chinese Agama. If so, it appears to possibly explain why Mahayana treat the word "perception" similar to "sankhara". I recommend to read MN 43, where the word "nimitta" (rather than "perception") is used for "sign" or "theme". The Pali suttas refer to "themes" such as "beautiful". This appears to go beyond "perception" ("sanna") and falls into the sphere of "concocting" ("sankhara").
form wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:32 am What type of meditation is this? What relations has it got to do with mindfulness or jhanas or factors of enligntenment?
Voidness (sunnata) and signless (animittā) meditation are defined & distinguished in MN 43. I recommend to look into MN 43 for an answer. Best wishes

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:19 am I recommend to read MN 43, where the word "nimitta" (rather than "perception") is used for "sign" or "theme". The Pali suttas refer to "themes" such as "beautiful". This appears to go beyond "perception" ("sanna") and falls into the sphere of "concocting" ("sankhara").
Sanna is apperception, the perception of the thing as the thing that it is - perception is adequate for nimitta, since it is by means of features and distinguising marks that we are able to perceive.

I know you prefer the suttas, but you might enjoy Identity and Experience by Sue Hamilton. Its an in depth analysis of the aggregates, well worth reading.

EDIT: I also think Sujato's translations, while technically probably fine (I'm no Pali guru), are bland and boring.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

Many knowledgeable answers above. :goodpost:

Dear Doodoot,
I never associate MN43 QnAs with voidness before although i have read it a few times. I will go look at it again.
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 am you might enjoy Identity and Experience by Sue Hamilton. Its an in depth analysis of the aggregates, well worth reading.
Seeing the shapes & distinguishing features of objects appears to be perception. Construing the notion or nimitta of "beautiful" from lust appears to be sankhara. MN 43 appears to say this, as follows:
It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'

Passion [lust] is a making of themes (nimitta). Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
form wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:15 amI never associate MN43 QnAs with voidness before although i have read it a few times. I will go look at it again.
Thanks Form. It provides the following definitions:
"And what is the emptiness awareness-release (suññatā cetovimutti)? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' This is called the emptiness awareness-release.

"And what is the theme-less awareness-release (animittā cetovimutti)? There is the case where a monk, through not attending to all themes, enters & remains in the theme-less concentration of awareness. This is called the theme-less awareness-release.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by Pseudobabble »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:34 am
Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 am you might enjoy Identity and Experience by Sue Hamilton. Its an in depth analysis of the aggregates, well worth reading.
Seeing the shapes & distinguishing features of objects appears to be perception. Construing the notion or nimitta of "beautiful" from lust appears to be sankhara. MN 43 appears to say this, as follows:
It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'

Passion [lust] is a making of themes (nimitta). Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Indeed. Anything we can perceive, we can perceive by means of that thing's features, it's signs, its nimitta. We perceive the beautiful by selecting those features which produce the perception of beauty - hence the practice of the contemplation of the 32 parts: a training in the selective perception of features which produces disenchantment, rather than attachment on the basis of the perception of beauty.

It is the selection of features that makes passion, aversion, and delusion each a sankhara, a making of signs. The sign of beauty isn't really there in the object (one can also perceive ugliness by directing attention to the right signs), it is constructed by means of the selection of the subset of the object's features which produce its perception.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by Pseudobabble »

form wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:32 am What type of meditation is this?
To actually answer your question, it is concentration without object.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
form
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:08 pm
form wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:32 am What type of meditation is this?
To actually answer your question, it is concentration without object.
After going thru the materials in the sutta again earlier today, i think you are technically correct.

Just curious, in order to do this, someone capable of this can attain that in one step or he need to go from first to fouth jhanas, the four immaterial state and then signless, based on the descriptions in the sutta?
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:01 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:34 am
Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:02 am you might enjoy Identity and Experience by Sue Hamilton. Its an in depth analysis of the aggregates, well worth reading.
Seeing the shapes & distinguishing features of objects appears to be perception. Construing the notion or nimitta of "beautiful" from lust appears to be sankhara. MN 43 appears to say this, as follows:
It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.'

Passion [lust] is a making of themes (nimitta). Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Indeed. Anything we can perceive, we can perceive by means of that thing's features, it's signs, its nimitta. We perceive the beautiful by selecting those features which produce the perception of beauty - hence the practice of the contemplation of the 32 parts: a training in the selective perception of features which produces disenchantment, rather than attachment on the basis of the perception of beauty.

It is the selection of features that makes passion, aversion, and delusion each a sankhara, a making of signs. The sign of beauty isn't really there in the object (one can also perceive ugliness by directing attention to the right signs), it is constructed by means of the selection of the subset of the object's features which produce its perception.
Interestingly, bhikkhu bodhi use the term "signs", bhikkhu thannisarro use the term "themes", i was thinking that the word "features" will mean the same in this context.

And these processess are papancea, or mental proliferations. Also term as on fire.
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