voidness: signless meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Pseudobabble
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by Pseudobabble »

form wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm
Pseudobabble wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:08 pm
form wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:32 am What type of meditation is this?
To actually answer your question, it is concentration without object.
After going thru the materials in the sutta again earlier today, i think you are technically correct.

Just curious, in order to do this, someone capable of this can attain that in one step or he need to go from first to fouth jhanas, the four immaterial state and then signless, based on the descriptions in the sutta?
I think to learn it you would have to proceed through the jhanas and establish familiarity, but once learnt, I imagine someone with skill could enter it immediately.
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"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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budo
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by budo »

Here's why this meditation is meant for people who already mastered jhanas, according to my beliefs, understanding and experiences with the first 4 jhanas (but not with formless jhanas):

First, the whole point of an object is to train your mind to replace thoughts and hindrances with an object, like say the breath. When your mind is pre-occupied with the breath, there is no room for anything else. So the first jhana is the first time you temporarily suspend the 5 hindrances.

So you're trying to trade the 5 hindrances for the breath object

Then once in first jhana, piti/sukha become the object, and you trade vitakka/vicarra (thinking) for more sukha.. As you can see the pattern, your'e concentrating your energy levels by not wasting them on unrefined/poorer forms..

then in second jhana sukha becomes the object until it passes away, and you trade it for equanimity.

So as you a can see, you keep trading objects until you arrive at emptiness/no-perception, once you've traded away the 5 aggregates you're at the signless/themeless concentration where you have no object because there is no object to trade.

So how are you going to do signless meditation if you haven't even learned to overcome the 5 hindrances?
form
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by form »

budo wrote: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:30 pm Here's why this meditation is meant for people who already mastered jhanas, according to my beliefs, understanding and experiences with the first 4 jhanas (but not with formless jhanas):

First, the whole point of an object is to train your mind to replace thoughts and hindrances with an object, like say the breath. When your mind is pre-occupied with the breath, there is no room for anything else. So the first jhana is the first time you temporarily suspend the 5 hindrances.

So you're trying to trade the 5 hindrances for the breath object

Then once in first jhana, piti/sukha become the object, and you trade vitakka/vicarra (thinking) for more sukha.. As you can see the pattern, your'e concentrating your energy levels by not wasting them on unrefined/poorer forms..

then in second jhana sukha becomes the object until it passes away, and you trade it for equanimity.

So as you a can see, you keep trading objects until you arrive at emptiness/no-perception, once you've traded away the 5 aggregates you're at the signless/themeless concentration where you have no object because there is no object to trade.

So how are you going to do signless meditation if you haven't even learned to overcome the 5 hindrances?
I agree with your analysis.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

To actually answer your question, it is concentration without object.
If that’s the case then it sounds exactly like the Zen practice of Shikantaza (just sitting).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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confusedlayman
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:32 am What type of meditation is this? What relations has it got to do with mindfulness or jhanas or factors of enligntenment?
My take on this..

Signless meditation or voidness meditation will result in same expeirence but different way of entering. Signless meditation means u perceive non self of object and impermanance of object and u cant fix something as they dont exist the way u see as solid or permanent. hence ur awareness dont get locked in to certain object (of cognition or contact) as wherever u see u see only non self/emptiness of that object. voidness means seeing it as empty of self but not considering impermanance.

U cannot substiutute space for voidness because space isd object of mind (sign,not signless) and things are not made of space.

If u apply 3 characterist to object, i.e impermanance, non self and suffering etc then u see a object (phone for example) as different parts made together so perception of full phone will not be there but u still perceive different parts and each part if u focus u still go to atoms, sub atoms etc but u should not end up with space. ur perception will see it as something else combined to make this big object so there is something something going deep and deep and finally due to weariness it will stop perceiving. when there is no perception of that object, the sign (which is the objevt or its deeper parts) will not occur. when this happens there is conciousness (u r not in coma) but there is no sign of anything to get u any knowledge/expeirence but if u think again aboyut this conciousness itself then u lost the signless meditation. in signless meditation u perceive object as empty of itself and attain no sign...once u attain it u get sign of what has happened and how signless meditation went only after emerging from the meditation and by past review knowledge. signless meditation can be emerged by attaining to any sign (arising the prception of something via sence contact). u dont need to do jhana to enter signless u need insight to enter it. worlding (who dont know 3 characteristic) cannot enter..others can enter at will. in signless meditaiton when perceiving empotiness of world and ur self dont enter space as its wrong view. space will again be one sign and ur conciousness latch to it and stress/exp associated with space is still there.. in signless on live u will not have any experience because all expeirence needs mind to move or function by Dependent origination but in signless there is no perception of this or that as u need object to perceive when u cant have object to perceoive where will perception arise or contact arise or conciousness arise? it is bare awareness or non abiding nirvana....bare awareness is different, conciousness is different. bare awareness when focused on object of contact is called conciousness. conciousness is focused awareness not bare awareness.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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cappuccino
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Re: voidness: signless meditation

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:12 am
To actually answer your question, it is concentration without object.
If that’s the case then it sounds exactly like the Zen practice of Shikantaza (just sitting).
Zen is like planting a seed
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