Great success with "full body" breath meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by Manopubbangama »

Benjamin wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:11 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:25 pm
I will go out on a limb and ask: can these two methods blend together like milk and water?

I would say definitely compatible, and arguably better for many if combined. Since talking with you a week or so ago, I've begun working with Patrick Kearney's lectures on the Mahasi Method, and I've found taking Thanissaro's perception of breath energy as the primary object to be an awesome combination. I'm also adding in the "relax and re-smile" bit from Bhante Vimalaramsi's 6R's with great results, though I have some reservations about him as a monk. I would say don't

I'm going to write a much longer post in a few hours about this combination of techniques, as it's been really beneficial for me and hopefully others will get something out of it.
Please share the Patrick Kearney.
User avatar
Benjamin
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:41 am
Location: Taiwan

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by Benjamin »

There are many retreats here all on recording, but any of them will do.


http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html


He has single-handedly turned me into a Mahasi fan in many ways. A very competent teacher!
:candle: :buddha1: :candle:
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by frank k »

Benjamin wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:10 am I've noticed that since beginning Thanissaro's style of meditation - the sort where full body awareness is focused on along with the breath - I've had significant improvements in concentration.

I think the main reason for this was that previously I had long stretches between breaths with nothing to hold my awareness; inevitably some sound or thought would arise and typically pull me off and away from the breathing. While keeping the whole body as the framework for the breath, even when there is a longer pause in the breathing, there is still the energy of the body awareness there to maintain the concentration.

Anyone practicing in a similar style? I'd love to hear what has worked for you.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ughts.html

I will expand on that article later, but Benjamin really captured the essence of why 16 APS is so effective in cutting of V&V.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by ToVincent »

frank k wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:41 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ughts.html

I will expand on that article later, but Benjamin really captured the essence of why 16 APS is so effective in cutting of V&V.
Again, maybe ānā-pānas-sati (ānāpānasmṛtiḥ) does not mean "mindfulness" of in & out breath, but the "acquisition" of in & out breath.
smṛti is the active of स्मृ smṛ, which is also a varia lectio (v.l.) for √ spṛ.

स्पृ √ spṛ (v.l. [ stṛ ] and [ smṛ ] )
- to release , extricate or deliver from (abl.), gain, win RV. TS. Br. TUp.
- Caus. [ spāráyati ] , to attract to one's self, win TBr. ; to preserve, save, rescue ib. ;
- to gladden, delight, gratify, bestow Dhātup.

In the Saṅkhārā nidāna of Paṭiccasamuppāda, assāsapassāsā (ānāpāna) is the first determination . Then come the verbal determination.
Extricate ānāpāna from that "verbal" (thinking) pollution, and you will win/acquire/obtain that breath, and have the "accurate knowledge of the particulars of" (paṭisaṃvedī) the gladness of pīti and sukha.

Your analysis goes way too far. It is much more simpler than that.
Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'
Dīghaṃ vā assasanto dīghaṃ assasāmīti pajānāti.

When one is in the first & second step of ānāpānassati, the discerning (pajānāti) is "thoughtful" (vitakka).
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to (having an accurate knowledge of the particulars of [paṭisaṃvedī]) the entire body.' Sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmīti sikkhati.

It is even more "thoughtful" in the third step above, because of this पततससववद pratisaṃvid.

Experiencing pīti and sukha through breath, is also a "thoughtful" paṭisaṃvedī.

This goes on & on, until you extricate that breath from the entanglement of thought.

Breath is the nimitta of this meditation.
It is what feeling, citta & dhamma are linked to, built upon and can be measured with.
Like a post is the nimitta of such or such sacrifice.

At the end of the first jhāna, and the entrance into the second jhāna, breath should almost be "on its own" (no more thinking added). And there should be near total cessation (vy-upa-sama) of Vitakka-Vicāra.
There should be an entrance into citta (mere feeling & perception).
The 7th to 9th steps are paṭisaṃvedī that are based on the last fading of thoughts, and a replacement by mere perception.

One can just stop at the 9th step to cut V&V. And things ate much simpler than they seem.
Metta.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by Laurens »

I use Thanissaro's method. Thus far, in my opinion it seems closer to the anapanasati sutta than any other method I've tried. In the sutta the Buddha very quickly goes on to being aware of the whole body whilst breathing, and then calming it. Not many other teachers seem to focus on this, but Thanissaro's method fulfils it nicely.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by budo »

Laurens wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:00 am I use Thanissaro's method. Thus far, in my opinion it seems closer to the anapanasati sutta than any other method I've tried. In the sutta the Buddha very quickly goes on to being aware of the whole body whilst breathing, and then calming it. Not many other teachers seem to focus on this, but Thanissaro's method fulfils it nicely.
Which method in particular? He has around 3-4 methods depending the book you read

I found his method in "Each and Every Breath" does not seem to align with the suttas, although I'm sure it works well as I've heard a lot of good things about it.

The part about spreading the breath throughout the body seems to align with the first jhana in the suttas but with piti/sukha instead of the breath.
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by Laurens »

budo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:03 am
Which method in particular? He has around 3-4 methods depending the book you read

I found his method in "Each and Every Breath" does not seem to align with the suttas, although I'm sure it works well as I've heard a lot of good things about it.

The part about spreading the breath throughout the body seems to align with the first jhana in the suttas but with piti/sukha instead of the breath.
Well I suppose truthfully I don't follow his method exactly, but the way I meditate draws heavily from his guided meditations from YouTube plus various things from his dhamma talks.

After reminding myself to be glad to be able to meditate and live at a time in which the Buddha's teachings are still available, and spreading metta to myself and all beings. I start as Thanissaro suggests, studying the breath and looking to see which length and feel of breath is most calming and gratifying. After settling in this manner for a while I then follow his steps for segmenting the body and noticing how it feels to breathe into different parts of the body (I know this part isn't sutta based, but I think it helps to settle into full body awareness). Then I breathe imagining the breath coming through every part of my body, as though it were coming through every pore (which I see as fulfilling the 3rd part of the 1st tetrad. I then progressively try to make my breath calmer and more tranquil throughout my whole body, and if I become still enough I then look for joyful, delightful feelings in the body.

I feel as though this method follows the suttas more clearly than focusing on one specific spot such as the nostrils, and not paying much attention toward making the breath calming and tranquil throughout the body. I guess because the instructions in the anapansati sutta are pretty brief there is always going to be interpretation and room to add details here and there. I feel like his method, or rather the above method (which is heavily influenced by his), is in line with the spirit of the suttas, and has been more helpful to me than any other technique I've discovered. I've not achieved Jhana through this method, but I certainly feel a lot of piti/sukha arising and imagine that with more diligence, and intense practise I could take me there.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by budo »

Laurens wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:43 pm
budo wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:03 am
Which method in particular? He has around 3-4 methods depending the book you read

I found his method in "Each and Every Breath" does not seem to align with the suttas, although I'm sure it works well as I've heard a lot of good things about it.

The part about spreading the breath throughout the body seems to align with the first jhana in the suttas but with piti/sukha instead of the breath.
Well I suppose truthfully I don't follow his method exactly, but the way I meditate draws heavily from his guided meditations from YouTube plus various things from his dhamma talks.

After reminding myself to be glad to be able to meditate and live at a time in which the Buddha's teachings are still available, and spreading metta to myself and all beings. I start as Thanissaro suggests, studying the breath and looking to see which length and feel of breath is most calming and gratifying. After settling in this manner for a while I then follow his steps for segmenting the body and noticing how it feels to breathe into different parts of the body (I know this part isn't sutta based, but I think it helps to settle into full body awareness). Then I breathe imagining the breath coming through every part of my body, as though it were coming through every pore (which I see as fulfilling the 3rd part of the 1st tetrad. I then progressively try to make my breath calmer and more tranquil throughout my whole body, and if I become still enough I then look for joyful, delightful feelings in the body.

I feel as though this method follows the suttas more clearly than focusing on one specific spot such as the nostrils, and not paying much attention toward making the breath calming and tranquil throughout the body. I guess because the instructions in the anapansati sutta are pretty brief there is always going to be interpretation and room to add details here and there. I feel like his method, or rather the above method (which is heavily influenced by his), is in line with the spirit of the suttas, and has been more helpful to me than any other technique I've discovered. I've not achieved Jhana through this method, but I certainly feel a lot of piti/sukha arising and imagine that with more diligence, and intense practise I could take me there.
Thanks for the summary. I've personally tried a variation of each type of method and each have their pros and cons. For example focusing on the nostrils and not the whole body has the benefit of not being distracted by tension in the body. Whereas if you focus your meditation on scanning the body for tension or at least the whole body in general, then you can spend the whole day trying to get rid of neck pain and other forms of tension.

So personally I follow a mix of techniques without falling into distraction traps such as making "removing tension" the new object of meditation. Also focusing too strongly on the nose can cause headaches, so it's like holding onto an egg, not too hard, not too soft.

Another method which I used to do and sometimes return to is following the breath from the nose to the belly button, and as the body calms down after 20-30 minutes the breath will stay at the nose naturally.

In general though I find that focusing on the whole body in the beginning is a good way to get distracted by pain, and it's better to shift your attention to the whole body after it becomes tranquil by focusing on the breath for at least 20-30 minutes first. This also aligns with the suttas.
ChooChoo
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:50 am

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by ChooChoo »

I have followed Thanissarps bhikkhus meditation online. I just have a question, after I do the body scan I can just focus on one point like the nostrils? Or should I continue focusing on the whole body?
JohnK
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Great success with "full body" breath meditation

Post by JohnK »

I have not listened to his online guided meditation lately, but his book With Each and Every Breath says:
"...maintain that sense of whole-boidy breathing throughout the remainder of your meditation." (pager 45 of the printed copy) Then again: "...see how quickly you can spread your awrareness along with the comfortable breath to fill the entirte body and then keep it filled." (page 48, emphasis added). He discusses some variations, but this seems to be the major instruction.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Post Reply