Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

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An entire thread absolutely ruined.
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

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Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:35 pm An entire thread absolutely ruined.
If it has not gone the way you wanted, start another thread, specify exactly what you want the answers to be about (and not about), and report any off-topic posts. If I'm around I'll enforce it.
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by SavakaNik »

I would say understanding ariyasacca is the way to Stream-Entry.
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

SavakaNik wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:29 pm I would say understanding ariyasacca is the way to Stream-Entry.
Please continue, sir.

I am all ears and eyes. :anjali:
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

Nwad wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:38 am Thank you Rightview for this compilation of great quotes ! _/\_ :)
Yes, Thanks Rightview for your valuable wisdom and contributions, it is much appreciated. :anjali:
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

budo wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:03 pm
User1249x wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:06 am
I think these attainments are much underrated nowadays, i rarely see anybody talking about them, almost everybody is aiming for Stream-Entry+ but the attainment of stream-entry is quite extreme imo because it requires some extraordinary factors to be well established and strong faculties, in example the perception of death
Two years ago, which was my most intensive meditation year with the most results, I had a very unsettling experience at least once a week.

It didn't come directly from meditation sessions but perhaps as an indirect result of momentum and built up mindfulness.

But sometimes when I would wake up from a nap, it felt like I woke up from death, not from a nap, like I didn't exist at all prior to waking up and I was taking my first breath and it was very unsettling to the point that I stopped taking naps and in general slept less because I didn't want to experience it again.

Back in those days I was getting first jhana regularly and was basically addicted to meditatiing, was meditating daily for hours. Since that phase passed that unsettling experience stopped.

I wonder if others had the same thing happen.
I think fear is one of the main stages in the stages of insight according to Vimutimagga, Visuddimagga and Mahasi.

I dont' know if you buy into that stuff or not, but its at least a parallel to what I think you may have been experiencing.

When I exited jhana I only felt bliss and happiness at the time.



6. Bhaya nana

The sixth stage of knowledge is bhaya nana or "knowledge of the appearance as terror." The following characteristics can be observed:

At first the meditator acknowledges objects, but the acknowledgements vanish together with consciousness.
A feeling of fear occurs but it is unlike that generated by seeing a ghost.
The disappearance of nama and rupa and the consequent becoming nothingness induce fear.
The meditator may feel neuralgic pain similar to that caused by a nervous disease when he is walking or standing.
Some practitioners cry when they think of their friends or relatives.
Some practitioners are very much afraid of what they see even if it is only a water jug or a bed post.
The meditator now realizes that nama and rupa, which were previously considered to be good, are completely insubstantial.
There is no feeling of happiness, pleasure or enjoyment.
Some practitioners are aware of this feeling of fear but are not controlled by it.

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html#fourc
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

paul wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:22 pm
Stream-entry is particularly concerned with the elimination of wrong views.
Agreed, but a dhamma-follower will experience it directly and experience nirodha.

Agreed?

As Ledi Sayadaw states:
Bon-sin-san Stream-winners,⁵⁵ like Visākhā and Anāthapiṇḍika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and Brahmas, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of saṃsāra (round of rebirths) from the moment personality-view was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of nibbāna with the five aggregates remaining (sa-upādisesa nibbāna).⁵⁶ Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become “Bon-sin-san” Noble Ones, they are beings of the supramundane sphere (lokuttara).
http://www.aimwell.org/bodhipakkhiya.html :anjali:
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

User1249x wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:27 pm
In short;
Yes it is the way in as far as it is a part of the overall development of the skillful qualities leading to the path attainment.
What I want to know is to what extent the paramis built in past lifes contribute to quick understanding, if at all.

Any idea?
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by SavakaNik »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:59 pm
SavakaNik wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:29 pm I would say understanding ariyasacca is the way to Stream-Entry.
Please continue, sir.

I am all ears and eyes. :anjali:
Sure, what I mean is in that the way I see it:

Understanding ariyasacca would be the way to stream entry (which is also the same as saying ‘the way to becoming a dhamma-follower’).
Whereas contemplating ariyasacca would be the way to becoming a faith-follower…

A householder hears a wise person, a noble one, a true bhikkhu, he listens to his dhamma…and then departing from the wise one who returns to the wilderness, he goes back to his home and ponders on the meaning of what he heard, trying to find that meaning, trying to see it as it is seen by he whom it was heard from….trying to understand it as it is understood by he whom it was heard from, contemplating the concepts told to him, explained to him, and related to him by the wise one: dukkha, the path, fruit, Nibbana (i.e AriyaSacca)

This would be contemplating ariyasacca.

The Buddha said the layman in this phase “measures the task”, he is measuring the task, contemplating how this situation is seen by the enlightened and how that compares to his experience, his life, as he knows it, measuring his craving and clinging, he ponders and contemplates his experience in reference to what he has heard about AriyaSacca until he realizes “Ah, there’s Nibbana” “This is what I must do” “This is what needs to be done” "This is how to do it" “This is the task”, and that is a very important interval to keep in mind; for just because someone has learned the 4 noble truths, or the senses, elements, dependant origination, nibbana, sankhara, dukkha, annica, or anatta – just because he knows of them, has learned them, he still does not have right view, he still will remain a putthujhana until he actually undergoes the experiential enlightenment of stream entry for himself- that he has the understanding as his actual experience thus:

“This is stress, this is its origination, this is its cessation, this is the way leading to its cessation” “When this is, that is” “All that arises passes away”, he understands correctly what Nibbana is. He understands the khandas, hence he understands stress. And from there if he wants to go forth into homelessness to progress towards wasting away ill will and sense desire he can, its up to him, or he can ordain as a monk, or he can stay as a householder, whatever, part of freedom from the first 3 fetters comes the liberation of not being subject to the belief that one is “somebody, in essence”, and regarding that “somebody” has “duties”, a sense of personality and a sense of duty are burdens now dropped – hence a stream enterer can disrobe if he feels he’s done enough, it’s nowhere near as important that he now correctly understands the problem, he correctly understands the solution, he correctly understands what must be done and he correctly understands how to do it. He may not even have experienced Jhana at this phase, but he will correctly understand it (same way that a sotapanna understands correctly Nibbana but still hasn't "reached the ocean"), but there is no doubt or confusion whatsoever about his understanding of the path or where he is on it, Having wasted away the first 3 fetters through the experiential enlightenment of stream entry, having attained to Right View, He understands AriyaSacca and in that he sees that his primary obstacles would be sense desire and ill will should he choose to endeavor to continue from that life changing moment.

So that is why I say, as I see it:
Contemplating, i.e. "knowing of it" is initiation into faith-following
Understanding, i.e. "knowing it" is initiation into dhamma-following (Stream Entry, at the least anyway).

And although it all can be technically encompassed as ariyasacca, I think it would be more directly in contemplating the five aggregates of clinging until one correctly discerns the clinging from the aggregates (and thus falling into understanding of both) that most people enter the stream.
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by budo »

:goodpost:
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by Manopubbangama »

SavakaNik wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:17 pm
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:59 pm
SavakaNik wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:29 pm I would say understanding ariyasacca is the way to Stream-Entry.
Please continue, sir.

I am all ears and eyes. :anjali:
Sure, what I mean is in that the way I see it:

Understanding ariyasacca would be the way to stream entry (which is also the same as saying ‘the way to becoming a dhamma-follower’).
Whereas contemplating ariyasacca would be the way to becoming a faith-follower…

A householder hears a wise person, a noble one, a true bhikkhu, he listens to his dhamma…and then departing from the wise one who returns to the wilderness, he goes back to his home and ponders on the meaning of what he heard, trying to find that meaning, trying to see it as it is seen by he whom it was heard from….trying to understand it as it is understood by he whom it was heard from, contemplating the concepts told to him, explained to him, and related to him by the wise one: dukkha, the path, fruit, Nibbana (i.e AriyaSacca)

This would be contemplating ariyasacca.

The Buddha said the layman in this phase “measures the task”, he is measuring the task, contemplating how this situation is seen by the enlightened and how that compares to his experience, his life, as he knows it, measuring his craving and clinging, he ponders and contemplates his experience in reference to what he has heard about AriyaSacca until he realizes “Ah, there’s Nibbana” “This is what I must do” “This is what needs to be done” "This is how to do it" “This is the task”, and that is a very important interval to keep in mind; for just because someone has learned the 4 noble truths, or the senses, elements, dependant origination, nibbana, sankhara, dukkha, annica, or anatta – just because he knows of them, has learned them, he still does not have right view, he still will remain a putthujhana until he actually undergoes the experiential enlightenment of stream entry for himself- that he has the understanding as his actual experience thus:

“This is stress, this is its origination, this is its cessation, this is the way leading to its cessation” “When this is, that is” “All that arises passes away”, he understands correctly what Nibbana is. He understands the khandas, hence he understands stress. And from there if he wants to go forth into homelessness to progress towards wasting away ill will and sense desire he can, its up to him, or he can ordain as a monk, or he can stay as a householder, whatever, part of freedom from the first 3 fetters comes the liberation of not being subject to the belief that one is “somebody, in essence”, and regarding that “somebody” has “duties”, a sense of personality and a sense of duty are burdens now dropped – hence a stream enterer can disrobe if he feels he’s done enough, it’s nowhere near as important that he now correctly understands the problem, he correctly understands the solution, he correctly understands what must be done and he correctly understands how to do it. He may not even have experienced Jhana at this phase, but he will correctly understand it (same way that a sotapanna understands correctly Nibbana but still hasn't "reached the ocean"), but there is no doubt or confusion whatsoever about his understanding of the path or where he is on it, Having wasted away the first 3 fetters through the experiential enlightenment of stream entry, having attained to Right View, He understands AriyaSacca and in that he sees that his primary obstacles would be sense desire and ill will should he choose to endeavor to continue from that life changing moment.

So that is why I say, as I see it:
Contemplating, i.e. "knowing of it" is initiation into faith-following
Understanding, i.e. "knowing it" is initiation into dhamma-following (Stream Entry, at the least anyway).

And although it all can be technically encompassed as ariyasacca, I think it would be more directly in contemplating the five aggregates of clinging until one correctly discerns the clinging from the aggregates (and thus falling into understanding of both) that most people enter the stream.
SavakaNik, I think you have a very good understanding of the dhamma.

When I get a free moment I will read through the rest of your posts to glean more useful wisdom, but this post alone was very helpful. I have already reread it several times.


Thank you, sir. :namaste:
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Re: Is contemplating AriyaSacca the way to Stream-Entry?

Post by User1249x »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm
User1249x wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:27 pm
In short;
Yes it is the way in as far as it is a part of the overall development of the skillful qualities leading to the path attainment.
What I want to know is to what extent the paramis built in past lifes contribute to quick understanding, if at all.

Any idea?
Imo to a crucial extent.
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