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Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 pm
by budo
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:31 pm
Uhh, what? Stream enterers have desire and ill-will and the remaining 5 other fetters.
See what I've said above.
Buddha teaches Anapanasati to people who are even lower than Stream-enterers... .... to non-nobles
Sutta does not say this. But even if it did - ancient ascetics with 8th jhana weren't stream-winners, but still, they were 5 mintues from arahantship (they had much more developed mind than stream-winners'). One short phrase was enough for them to attain full enlightenment immediately on the place (Bahiya case is the best known, but not unique).

What is more important - Anapanasati sutta was given to monks, not lay people. Probably, capable monks, with developed minds. Same goes for Satipatthana sutta (at least Commy states that it is so - it was given to special, advanced audience).
What you said above is not consistent, as I told you before your problem is not your perspective but your inconsistency leading to contradictions. Please clarify further the right amount of defilements one needs to begin meditating.

Also yes, the sutta does say it, hence the Buddha addresses new monks who have not attained anything. Also I posted another sutta in this thread where the Buddha tells a lay person to seek seclusion and attain rapture, aka to meditate.

Here the Buddha addresses new monks and goes from most attained to least in anapanasati sutta:

"
Then the elder monks taught & instructed the new monks even more intensely. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions.

Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the White Water-lily Month, the fourth month of the rains — the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them:

"Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly — the sort of assembly that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along provisions, in order to see.

"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing"

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:54 pm
by Zom
Please clarify further the right amount of defilements one needs to begin meditating.
Said already.
Also yes, the sutta does say it, hence the Buddha addresses new monks who have not attained anything.
It does not.
Also I posted another sutta in this thread where the Buddha tells a lay person to seek seclusion and attain rapture, aka to meditate.
Yes, 1 sutta in 9000+ in whole Pali Canon. And given, probably, to a layperson of Citta/Hatthaka level, that is, someone close to anagami magga. Like Satipatthana sutta as well, according to Commy. In no way such text could be for mass audience.
Here the Buddha addresses new monks and goes from most attained to least in anapanasati sutta:
It is just your (wrong) interpretation. All aryia-level monks, except arahants, are devoted to ...."the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths...". If you are right, then ariyas do not develop all those things, and that is, obviously, a mistake.

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:51 pm
by budo
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:54 pm
Please clarify further the right amount of defilements one needs to begin meditating.
Said already.
Also yes, the sutta does say it, hence the Buddha addresses new monks who have not attained anything.
It does not.
Also I posted another sutta in this thread where the Buddha tells a lay person to seek seclusion and attain rapture, aka to meditate.
Yes, 1 sutta in 9000+ in whole Pali Canon. And given, probably, to a layperson of Citta/Hatthaka level, that is, someone close to anagami magga. Like Satipatthana sutta as well, according to Commy. In no way such text could be for mass audience.
Here the Buddha addresses new monks and goes from most attained to least in anapanasati sutta:
It is just your (wrong) interpretation. All aryia-level monks, except arahants, are devoted to ...."the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths...". If you are right, then ariyas do not develop all those things, and that is, obviously, a mistake.
It clearly says the elder monks taught younger monks. Also the Buddha addressed the assembly. Your argument is that a certain level of purity is required to meditate, and that not even all sotapannas have met this requirement, clearly this is false since there were people at that assembly lower than YOUR purity requirement for meditation but not the Buddha's purity requirement for practicing meditation, hence YOUR contradiction with the Buddha.

Also Bhikkhu Bodhi has written an article on lay people attaining jhana and different levels of ariya, as well as lay arahants dying, so no it's not only 1 sutta in 9000+, another false statement made by you.

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:04 pm
by Zom
Your argument is that a certain level of purity is required to meditate ... clearly this is false
Okay, go ahead, meditate as much as you like. But don't ask later why you put so much effort into it but got nothing 8-)

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:11 pm
by JamesTheGiant
Zom and Budo, you guys totally hijacked this thread.

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:30 pm
by budo
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:04 pm
Your argument is that a certain level of purity is required to meditate ... clearly this is false
Okay, go ahead, meditate as much as you like. But don't ask later why you put so much effort into it but got nothing 8-)
I meditated 4 hours two days ago and felt content, I meditated yesterday for 1 hour and had piti and sukha.

And what about your perspective? Have you met your own purity requirement? Not only do you have nothing, but you will never have anything because you will never meet your own made up purity requirement. If you can't meditate, not even metta, how will you lower defilements? So you're a prisoner of your own wrong view.

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:32 pm
by Zom
Not only do you have nothing
You know absolutely nothing about level of my practice and about my attainments in Dhamma 8-)
Zom and Budo, you guys totally hijacked this thread.
:D

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:33 pm
by budo
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:32 pm
Not only do you have nothing
You know absolutely nothing about level of my practice and about my attainments in Dhamma 8-)
But you know mine. Correct?

Re: I give up

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:54 pm
by Bundokji
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:17 pm
It's okay, just do Life meditation. And then you could go back to more formal sitting practice when you are ready.
Life meditation seems to be the most natural form of meditation to me.

When i look at different threads on the forum (including this one) i notice that disagreements is surprisingly wider among practitioners who somehow believe in systematic method of practice, and even when they explain their rationale on why they believe in certain things, they often refer to the Suttas instead of referring to real life situations.

This method of practice, which seems to be devoid from life, can explain why some would decide to give up. If this is Buddhism, giving up is not necessarily a bad idea.

Re: I give up

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:26 am
by Sweeney
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:54 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:17 pm
It's okay, just do Life meditation. And then you could go back to more formal sitting practice when you are ready.
Life meditation seems to be the most natural form of meditation to me.

When i look at different threads on the forum (including this one) i notice that disagreements is surprisingly wider among practitioners who somehow believe in systematic method of practice, and even when they explain their rationale on why they believe in certain things, they often refer to the Suttas instead of referring to real life situations.

This method of practice, which seems to be devoid from life, can explain why some would decide to give up. If this is Buddhism, giving up is not necessarily a bad idea.
Well said! :focus:

Re: I give up

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:49 am
by tamdrin
I am also struggling with mental illness. The worst of them all, schizophrenia to be exact. It is not an easy battle by any means but hang in there. There will be moments of peace and clarity where you may be able to do some sitting. There are moments when all you can do is lie down on the pillow, close your eyes, and pray for better times.


Best wishes...

Re: I give up

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:31 am
by robertk
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:54 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:17 pm
It's okay, just do Life meditation. And then you could go back to more formal sitting practice when you are ready.
Life meditation seems to be the most natural form of meditation to me.

When i look at different threads on the forum (including this one) i notice that disagreements is surprisingly wider among practitioners who somehow believe in systematic method of practice, and even when they explain their rationale on why they believe in certain things, they often refer to the Suttas instead of referring to real life situations.

This method of practice, which seems to be devoid from life, can explain why some would decide to give up. If this is Buddhism, giving up is not necessarily a bad idea.
yes indeed. the way starts with right view and if that is developed then everything follows nicely.

Re: I give up

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:29 pm
by befriend
Hi zom, what does one practice in order to get to the level of being able to do vipassana?