Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:22 pm

It is just nimitta.

The nimitta of body, feeling, or citta, is breath, in ānāpānasati.
They are linked to, built upon and can be measured with breath.
https://justpaste.it/17va5
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

paul
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by paul » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:33 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:00 pm
What is saṅkhara in the particular case of Anapanasati ?

Thanissaro translates sankhara as fabrications:

Sister Dhammadinna: “In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed
thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are
mental fabrications.” — MN 44

“This means that in step 4 you deliberately try to calm the breath. In step 8,
after sensitizing yourself to the effect of perceptions and feelings on the mind in
step 7, you try to cultivate perceptions and feelings that will have a calming
effect. And although verbal fabrication is not mentioned by name in any of the
steps, the use of the training phrase “I will breathe” is, in itself, an example of
using verbal fabrication skillfully. So all three forms of fabrication play a role in
these sixteen steps.”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.

ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 pm

paul wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:33 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:00 pm
What is saṅkhara in the particular case of Anapanasati ?
Thanissaro translates sankhara as fabrications:
MN 44 (MA210) & SN 41.6 (SA 568), that are concerned respectively with the second nidanna of paticcasamuppada (and also the 9th jhana); as well as outside this niddana (it seems,) are pretty much controversial among schools.

The Chinese Madhyama-agama (MA 210) does not cover the three sankharas.

The Tibetan parallel (Chos sbyin gyi mdo) does not have perception & feeling, but perception & intention for cittasankhara.
The same occurs in SA 568 (SN 41.6); that is to say perception & intention.

Note that SN 41.6 does not mention paticcasamuppada.

So, I am not going to embark on the everlasting nonsense merry-go-round, with this new ticket.
Although my conviction is that perception and feeling is what cittasankhara is all about in sankhara nidana; or the 9th jhana (see SN 36.11 & SA 474 for the latter).

________

I was just adressing saṅkara, with its right etymology; in the context of the right meaning of samādhi.
https://justpaste.it/5x298
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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DooDoot
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:10 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 pm
I was just adressing saṅkara, with its right etymology;
Sankhara appears to be one of the most diverse words in the suttas. There appears to be no such thing as "right etymology" that fits every context of use. For example, MN 43 refers to the ayu sankhara (life force) that exists when all mentality ceases to operate in Nirodha Samapatti. Also, each aggregate is called a 'sankhara' (MN 35; Dhp 277; etc).
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 pm
MN 44 & SN 41.6, that are concerned respectively with the second nidanna of paticcasamuppada (and also the 9th jhana); as well as outside this niddana (it seems,) are pretty much controversial among schools. Note that SN 41.6 does not mention paticcasamuppada.
The sutta teachings are largely based on strict definitions. MN 44 & SN 41.6 offer a standard definition of these terms. I think it is careless to dismiss this. More importantly, what these definitions actually mean should be investigated.
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:11 pm
What is saṅkhara in the particular case of Anapanasati ? One should refer to both SN 22.81...
Sankhara in SN 22.81 refers to thought (of self) by sankhara khandha. This context in SN 22.81, while relevant, appears far too limited. Feeling & perception as "citta sankhara" I think are more broadly and appropriately described below:
What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.

MN 18
When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

MN 148

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one_awakening
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by one_awakening » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:14 am

When rapture (step 5) and happiness (step 6) occur, they can push & pull the mind (citta) to have various reactions; particularly when the meditator is new to this sphere of experience . Step 7 is experiencing how rapture and happiness push & pull the mind to have various reactions. Step 8 is calming this process, that is, calming any reactivity & the feelings themselves.

When step 5 and 6 is reached, particularly step 5 (rapture), many types of mental reactions can occur. The mind can delight or lust over the rapture; the mind can create self-delusions over the rapture (such as "I have attained; I am the next Jesus"); the mind can dislike the rapture because it disturbs the calmness developed at step 4; or the mind can become apprehensive & confused over the rapture because it can be difficult for the newbie to control & maintain the composure, equanimity & concentration of the mind (citta) when the rapture is strong.

Step 7 is experiencing how feelings (& perceptions of those feelings) sankhara (stir-up) the citta (mind). Step 8 is calming this process.

This makes sense to me. Thank you.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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one_awakening
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by one_awakening » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:24 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:20 pm
I don't think these are "steps". All 4 tetrads are actually 4 satipatthanas, and 4 satipatthanas are not "steps". They are just 4 possible areas to direct your attention.


Well Thanissaro calls them steps, so that's good enough for me.


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DooDoot
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:22 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:24 am
Well Thanissaro calls them steps, so that's good enough for me.
They appear to be "steps" since the later experience is dependent upon the former. Step 4 (calming the breath) depends on steps 1, 2 and 3 (experiencing the breath). Step 5 (experiencing the manifestation of rapture) depends on step 4 (calming the breath). Etc, etc. Step 9 is the most misunderstood because it is unrelated to thinking/thought but is about experiencing (the element/energy of) underlying defilements (or their absence) with full concentration on breathing. When the rapture & happiness are calmed away (step 8), there will remain some underlying defilements - step 9 (which are then calmed away, with concentration, which gives rise to step 10). Most like to believe dealing with thoughts is step 9 but its is not. Dealing with distracting thoughts is step 0 (zero).

ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:47 am

Oh !, one more thing:

The Sanskrit रननाप manāpa [mana_āpa] means lit. “reach the manas”.
So what is agreeable (manāpa,) or disagreable (amanāpaṃ) , or both ( manāpāmanāpa,) seems to be related to “reaching the mano”. (See MN 152).

You have it all.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Zom
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by Zom » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:22 am

Well Thanissaro calls them steps, so that's good enough for me.
And still, according to Buddha himself (MN 118), 4 anapanasti tetrads are 4 satipatthanas, and again, 4 satipatthanas are not steps .)

ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:14 pm

Maybe this could also help.

Samadhi:
https://justpaste.it/5x298

&

Saṅkhara in Ānāpānasati:
https://justpaste.it/5o7hp
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:19 pm

Oops ! Sorry, I posted the wrong URL.
For Anapanasati & Jhana side by side, this is the one:
https://justpaste.it/69jp3

That's all folks !.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:48 am

Zom wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:22 am
And still, according to Buddha himself (MN 118), 4 anapanasti tetrads are 4 satipatthanas, and again, 4 satipatthanas are not steps .)
I think the four tetrads of anapanasati describe a progression, while the four frames of satipatthana can be practiced individually.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Zom
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by Zom » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:54 pm

I think the four tetrads of anapanasati describe a progression, while the four frames of satipatthana can be practiced individually.
Yes, generally it is presented this way, but I don't think such interpertations are correct. For example, step 11 (which actually is N3 in mind-satipatthana) says that one concentrates his mind. But what did you do in previous 10 steps before that? Or - step 10 says that you gladden the mind. If so, what did you do before steps 5-6, where you observe jhanic rapture and bliss? So, "progression" models with their rather dim explanations look unconvincing.

However, if we see it just as 4 satipatthanas - everything is clear: while breathing in-out you notice this-that happening in body/mind.

paul
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by paul » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:37 pm

Mindfulness of the body is clearly intended to be a focus and foundation for the other three, it being the only one where a list of exercises (six) are given.

ToVincent
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Re: Anapanasati - Step 7 and 8

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:05 pm

And what about "sati" in the case of Ānāpānasati?

Is it "sati" coming from Vedic smṛti, meaning recollection - or is it coming from सति sati = साति sāti = gaining , obtaining , acquisition (RV.)

If Samādhi, as seen before =
Temporary placing of (establishing) oneself in citta, before total liberation of the latter. The transcendence from dwelling in mano+citta, towards dwelling purely in citta, AND the process of liberating it thoroughly (second to fourth jhanas).

Then Ānāpānasatisamādhi would just mean:
"Obtaining the establishment in Citta, through breathing" .
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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