Third Eye Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
auto
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:48 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:23 am
Another example of the seven chakka as chariots
"Answering in this way, my friend, he would answer them correctly: 'Just now, as I was staying at Savatthi, some urgent business arose at Saketa; and between Savatthi and Saketa seven relay chariots were made ready for me. Coming out the door of the inner palace in Savatthi, I got in the first relay chariot. By means of the first relay chariot I reached the second relay chariot. Getting out of the first relay chariot I got in the second relay chariot. By means of the second relay chariot I reached the third... by means of the third I reached the fourth... by means of the fourth, the fifth... by means of the fifth, the sixth... by means of the sixth I reached the seventh relay chariot. Getting out of the sixth relay chariot I got in the seventh relay chariot. By means of the seventh relay chariot I finally arrived at the door of the inner palace at Saketa.' Answering in this way, he would answer them correctly.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Saketa has an equvilent but since this thread is not in connection to other paths I will leave for further individual research

:anjali:
1. "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind
2. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view
3. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity
4. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path
5. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way
6. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision
7. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging

And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One.
….
"My friend, is the holy life lived under the Blessed One?"
"Yes, my friend."
basically to me this above small quote says that the blessed one isn't one single being unique to 500 AD but is a consciousness like idk for christians its Jesus through whom one become saved, so its a consciousness or something like that too.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:26 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:12 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:46 am
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:56 am

The suttas are encoded and may not exactly give direct reference to todays chakra equivalents or the yoga traditions word for word literally, but they are there....
My experience is that people gets a bit jumpy when one opens up for other views, and the best thing to do is to just keep on practice alone. I have no doubt or problem with the concepts of chakras, and are at this moment into deepening the practice around it. But as I said before, there are a lot of interesting "stuff" around, but monks are not allowed to share fantastic practice, and based on my own direct experiences, maybe that is the best in the long run, because when one gets closer to powers like this, it also becomes very clear that one must have pure hands or one might get burned badly

Hi Crazy cloud,

I agree, although the 7 psychic centers play a central role in the psychology or consciousness states of all beings, that is all that we are made up of one way or another. Certain teachings are naturally inferred with the development of practice and skill comes in how they are communicated and should directly impact the level of being of the person to move them/us forward. Over the internet is quite difficult because people will be often only be seeing one context with only each singular view.

The suttas are complete, not only as a collection or full body as in tripitaka but also individually as individual suttas, the deeper our insights go the more even one sutta will reveal dhammas that were initially not recognized, this is where fixed ideas and concrete statements fall short of understanding the natural expansion in relation to our experience when reading or contemplating the texts as guides for development on the path. My knowledge and experience is limited, but even then i do refrain as much as possible from sharing some portions of teachings online due to readers having complex forms of varying levels of awareness.

I think this is the strength of ThervAvada to keep the subtle more esoteric teachings not as apparent and their wisdom is deal with the more direct worldly dhammas which require more effort and work on. Once these are transcended to some degree new forms of communication and language naturally open up without much discord, discord is related to blockages in the lower chakras or psychic centres where worldly desires and sense contacts are more prominent.

sometimes we have to just say what to do :shrug: , and lets hope for more maturing within the process. I still think certain factors that are related to debilitating conditions in the dhamma need to be addressed in a without sentiment, especially fixed idea and sectarianism, which have no place in dhamma margs. When natural wisdom arises it will attract beings of the same nature, it may be less quantitative but more qualitative.

:anjali:

Yesterday, sitting relaxing between job activities, on a park bench nearby. Came to just play a bit with lights, and lent some from around the place. Sat and played a while and stabilizing and putting spirit into these, making a glow with the two top ones, and they are gorgeous those two together. But I lost interest after a few minutes, and let my eyes rest on a piece of grass 4 m away, - and there the mind played with itself, laying the rest of the five ones on top of each other, like vails of living colors making a glowing shiny dancing flower in front of me, just me ... :smile:

How bout a chakra for lunch ...
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:02 am

Thanks for your poetry Crazy Cloud :anjali:

Hi Auto
My friend, is the holy life lived under the Blessed One?"
"Yes, my friend.
basically to me this above small quote says that the blessed one isn't one single being unique to 500 AD but is a consciousness
:thumbsup:
1. "In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind
2. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view
3. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity
4. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path
5. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way
6. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision
7. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging
lets take a break from mundane irritating literal thinking and go on journey of discovery through the conscious maps.

Just for reflection ehipassiko.

lets not forget sutta is Svakkhato, perfectly expounded.

Its important to know what ñāṇa is relevant to each chariot, for the chariot to lead inwards onwards and upwards opanayiko on the path of truth dhamma magga to paccekabuddha who resides in Saketa to understand the Absolute All pervading Power of Tathāgata, unlimited consciousness without limits or conditions, who is sandhittiko apparent here and now, Akaliko~beyond linear time .

Problems arise in theory study and limiting dhamma to a dead language such as English, by dead language the context is A means nothing, B means has no meaning C has absolutely no meaning and all the way Z, all these letters when they stand alone have absolutely no meaning, they can just be constructed in patterns and then given meaning which often conflicts, and is considered unconscious in its own right and is the lowest form of emprical sense speech .

So the word consciousness when applied to all aspects of the teachings loses meaning. But what to do, lets try and make use of a bad bargain which can promote conscious studies rather than mundane intellectual NLP formations, which false academics and mundane scholars and brainwashed literal modern educated people like to give absolute meaning and stamp their authority through dominating fear techniques, they are simple conditioned formations Saṅkhāra that lead only to thought upon thought in patterns and limited cycles, an aspect of samsara or keeps one in samsara, when insight happens its ok, the same dead words can be used as a tool, but only in a limited way, if insight happens it will have enough common sense to not get stuck in linguistics. I am in no way referring to pali language and sanskrit, the letters and structure of texts are for direct perception into consciousness. They are conscious languages, not dead languages.

Knowledge here means consciousness or conscious of, consciousness Pāli ñāṇa/ sanskrit jñāna if one follows ñāṇa in its true cognitive meaning then one arrives at Tathāgata. chakkas are the opening of ñāṇa, 7 doors, chariots, days openings ect for the raising of ñāṇa to the final destination Saketa, wheels turning of dhammas leading, through the lokas to Tathāgata.


Savatthi has meaning as is directive to unconscious state in terms of the maps of consciousness of the suttas, some individual research for reflection is better. Lets look at it from the point of earthly worldly based of being or ground where ñāṇa is developed through the seven routes to the abode of Saketa final destination of the seven routes.

To try and jump to third eye is not wisdom, cultivation of wisdom eye dhamma chakku, , there is a route, this is wisdom, the vAda of the Elders , teachings of the wise ones.

DhammaCakkappavattana Sutta

A decent enough word for word tranlsation for reflection and right memory based sutta learning

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 6-011.html

for easier means of learning sutta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCc9A4jFI54

for reflection and the well being of oneself and all beings.

With Metta

:anjali:

auto
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:55 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:02 am
lets take a break from mundane irritating literal thinking and go on journey of discovery through the conscious maps.

Just for reflection ehipassiko.

lets not forget sutta is Svakkhato, perfectly expounded.

Its important to know what ñāṇa is relevant to each chariot, for the chariot to lead inwards onwards and upwards opanayiko on the path of truth dhamma magga to paccekabuddha who resides in Saketa to understand the Absolute All pervading Power of Tathāgata, unlimited consciousness without limits or conditions, who is sandhittiko apparent here and now, Akaliko~beyond linear time .

Problems arise in theory study and limiting dhamma to a dead language such as English, by dead language the context is A means nothing, B means has no meaning C has absolutely no meaning and all the way Z, all these letters when they stand alone have absolutely no meaning, they can just be constructed in patterns and then given meaning which often conflicts, and is considered unconscious in its own right and is the lowest form of emprical sense speech .

So the word consciousness when applied to all aspects of the teachings loses meaning. But what to do, lets try and make use of a bad bargain which can promote conscious studies rather than mundane intellectual NLP formations, which false academics and mundane scholars and brainwashed literal modern educated people like to give absolute meaning and stamp their authority through dominating fear techniques, they are simple conditioned formations Saṅkhāra that lead only to thought upon thought in patterns and limited cycles, an aspect of samsara or keeps one in samsara, when insight happens its ok, the same dead words can be used as a tool, but only in a limited way, if insight happens it will have enough common sense to not get stuck in linguistics. I am in no way referring to pali language and sanskrit, the letters and structure of texts are for direct perception into consciousness. They are conscious languages, not dead languages.

Knowledge here means consciousness or conscious of, consciousness Pāli ñāṇa/ sanskrit jñāna if one follows ñāṇa in its true cognitive meaning then one arrives at Tathāgata. chakkas are the opening of ñāṇa, 7 doors, chariots, days openings ect for the raising of ñāṇa to the final destination Saketa, wheels turning of dhammas leading, through the lokas to Tathāgata.


Savatthi has meaning as is directive to unconscious state in terms of the maps of consciousness of the suttas, some individual research for reflection is better. Lets look at it from the point of earthly worldly based of being or ground where ñāṇa is developed through the seven routes to the abode of Saketa final destination of the seven routes.

To try and jump to third eye is not wisdom, cultivation of wisdom eye dhamma chakku, , there is a route, this is wisdom, the vAda of the Elders , teachings of the wise ones.

DhammaCakkappavattana Sutta

A decent enough word for word tranlsation for reflection and right memory based sutta learning

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 6-011.html

for easier means of learning sutta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCc9A4jFI54

for reflection and the well being of oneself and all beings.

With Metta

:anjali:
1)
..
And what, bhikkhus, is the majjhima paṭipada to which the Tathāgata has fully awaken, which produces vision, which produces ñāṇa, and leads to appeasement, to abhiñña, to sambodhi, to Nibbāna? It is, bhikkhus, this ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga, that is to say: sammā·diṭṭhi sammā·saṅkappa sammā·vācā sammā·kammanta sammā·ājīva sammā·vāyāma sammā·sati sammā·samādhi. This, bhikkhus, is the majjhima paṭipada to which the Tathāgata has awaken, which produces vision, which produces ñāṇa, and leads to appeasement, to abhiñña, to sambodhi, to Nibbāna.
2)
jati is suffering
tanha leads to rebirth
that tanha eradication is end of suffering
there is path to it

3)
your will stop coming and what then come is new and what is new is stress but this time eye arises, wisdom, knowledge, light arise too and dhukka is known. Origin of suffering is known, also cessation of suffering this time is known by developing path.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 6-011.html
And so long, bhikkhus, as my yathā·bhūtaṃ knowledge and vision of these four ariyasaccas in these twelve ways by triads was not quite pure, I did not claim in the loka with its devas, with its Māras, with its Brahmās, with the samaṇas and brahmins, in this generation with its devas and humans, to have fully awakened to the supreme sammā·sambodhi.
4 noble truths in 12 ways by triads
..
This is what the Bhagavā said. Delighted, the groupe of five bhikkhus approved of the Bhagavā's words. And while this exposition was being spoken, there arose in āyasmā Koṇḍañña the Dhamma eye which is free from passion and stainless: 'all that has the nature of samudaya has the nature of nirodha'.
Dhamma eye, arises at 3rd triad, and then you can say things what appear will disappear, impermanence, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, you get it, a-ha.
Then the Bhagavā uttered this udāna: 'Koṇḍañña really understood! Koṇḍañña really understood!' And that is how āyasmā Koṇḍañña acquired the name 'Aññāsi·Koṇḍañña'.

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:27 pm

Thank you auto :sage:

Maybe it might be a good idea to do an etymology study into the pali names in suttas. Etymology of done in the right way increase power of reflection, in vedanta schools etymology is one the 6 vedangas. Maybe even the theory people can make some sense out of it too, that would be a great help.

I would be very interested in that but my pali is not good enough.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:16 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:27 pm
Thank you auto :sage:

Maybe it might be a good idea to do an etymology study into the pali names in suttas. Etymology of done in the right way increase power of reflection, in vedanta schools etymology is one the 6 vedangas. Maybe even the theory people can make some sense out of it too, that would be a great help.

I would be very interested in that but my pali is not good enough.

:anjali:
hi,

Bahiya Sutta

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html

the person there is named Bahiya and he had issue with external sense base (i don't know pali so i copy paste it from wiki, bāhirāni āyatanāni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana)
Where water, earth,
fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
in external ayatana wind, water, earth,... has no footing, stars don't shine.
So the shine comes somewhere else than external ayatana, eye organ is internal, visible object is external domain.
..
Are you suggest that the persons in Sutta are with their names point out something as like with Bahiya and external ayatana? Like idk in other culture someone slayed Demon and got respectviley also a name demon x slayer?

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Namaste Auto
Where water, earth,
fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
It would be interesting to go through the pali, sounds very simliar to anidassana vinnana. From what I can infer from the English this is another journey through the inner cosmology where Bahiya is turning inwards from sense bases consciousness, where he was having issues, a lot of texts may start from this due to the dissatisfaction of external mind and sense consciousness and one seeks solutions within. I know some sanskrit texts that describe places without sun and moon and beyond name and form and so on this but this is in the wrong forum for to give more details. For better translations it would need someone who has insight into pali and structure sutta.
Are you suggest that the persons in Sutta are with their names point out something as like with Bahiya
There will be significance in the story line and how names of people and places are codes compounds of consciousness.

one example in rough prose from Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta

So the Blessed One, entering the potter's shed and, setting out a spread of grass to one side, sat down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. He spent most of the night sitting [in meditation]. Ven. Pukkusati also spent most of the night sitting [in meditation].

This is my just a poor effort ans not to be taken as standard, I am just writing this off the top of my head without depth in research, maybe more respected learned members in the tradition can help more, I know Ajhan Sujjato makes some good efforts and tries to weave through them more slowly and always seems open to the expansion of sutta study, but my knowledge of him is limited.
Potters shed, a potter mold, shape and creates, so would mean the body, so already the scene is being set, grass like kusa grass is an ancient asana or seat for the yogi. Pukkusati pukku I dont know, in Sanskrit and pali pukka means excellent or perfect, maybe pukku some variation of pukka, but would need a better pal translator that is more skilled in translating sutta from mediators point of view and sati is awareness, so it could be along the lines of within the body seated on the sacred asana or seat of kusa grass with perfect attention pleased the Buddha and received discourse.
Of course im am not being very accurate, just outlining roughly the more ancient (timeless ) way of meditating and gaining guidance and essence from the suttas, which in turn opens awareness, the better the reflective ability and the etymology the more depth is gained from the sutta. Maybe some help is needed to start off how to go about sutta study but then they are best done alone. I use this system with a few sanskrit texts. This system is to help build up right type of concentration samma samadhi via the study route. Wrong type of samadhi is reading them like novels, but can help to start to some degree.

Much to learn, and nowhere to get stuck only transfixed by the essence of the suttas and dhamma marg to reach Buddha.

:anjali:

auto
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:37 am

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:32 pm
Namaste Auto
Where water, earth,
fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
It would be interesting to go through the pali, sounds very simliar to anidassana vinnana. From what I can infer from the English this is another journey through the inner cosmology where Bahiya is turning inwards from sense bases consciousness, where he was having issues, a lot of texts may start from this due to the dissatisfaction of external mind and sense consciousness and one seeks solutions within. I know some sanskrit texts that describe places without sun and moon and beyond name and form and so on this but this is in the wrong forum for to give more details. For better translations it would need someone who has insight into pali and structure sutta.
Are you suggest that the persons in Sutta are with their names point out something as like with Bahiya
There will be significance in the story line and how names of people and places are codes compounds of consciousness.

one example in rough prose from Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta

So the Blessed One, entering the potter's shed and, setting out a spread of grass to one side, sat down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. He spent most of the night sitting [in meditation]. Ven. Pukkusati also spent most of the night sitting [in meditation].

This is my just a poor effort ans not to be taken as standard, I am just writing this off the top of my head without depth in research, maybe more respected learned members in the tradition can help more, I know Ajhan Sujjato makes some good efforts and tries to weave through them more slowly and always seems open to the expansion of sutta study, but my knowledge of him is limited.
Potters shed, a potter mold, shape and creates, so would mean the body, so already the scene is being set, grass like kusa grass is an ancient asana or seat for the yogi. Pukkusati pukku I dont know, in Sanskrit and pali pukka means excellent or perfect, maybe pukku some variation of pukka, but would need a better pal translator that is more skilled in translating sutta from mediators point of view and sati is awareness, so it could be along the lines of within the body seated on the sacred asana or seat of kusa grass with perfect attention pleased the Buddha and received discourse.
Of course im am not being very accurate, just outlining roughly the more ancient (timeless ) way of meditating and gaining guidance and essence from the suttas, which in turn opens awareness, the better the reflective ability and the etymology the more depth is gained from the sutta. Maybe some help is needed to start off how to go about sutta study but then they are best done alone. I use this system with a few sanskrit texts. This system is to help build up right type of concentration samma samadhi via the study route. Wrong type of samadhi is reading them like novels, but can help to start to some degree.

Much to learn, and nowhere to get stuck only transfixed by the essence of the suttas and dhamma marg to reach Buddha.

:anjali:
I think you don't need to interpret, because often the meanings are explained within the Sutta itself,
"Just as when, from the friction & conjunction of two fire sticks, heat is born and fire appears, and from the separation & disjunction of those very same fire sticks, the concomitant heat ceases, is stilled; in the same way, in dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure... In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pain... In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, there arises a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain... One discerns that 'With the cessation of that very sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, the concomitant feeling... ceases, is stilled.'
I think this type of messages in Suttas are to be taken as what you see from reading words without doing anything esle with the meanings.
Also arhants ask simple questions for the sake of audience and the behaivour of the Blessed One is explained in Suttas by Ananda or someone else.

i just read many times one and the same messages and look what pops up. I don't really study but look words literally, fire stick is fire stick i see images of firesticks and their function what they do(even what the firesticks supposed to do are written down for us, so it would be again my mistake to think about the function if firestick function isn't mentioned).
I think Suttas are made for that type of reading, because of the repetitions, i don't need think further but just let the words carry me.
---
write down esoteric meanings literally because originally there is literal meanings and things done for real. Thinking about opening third eye is wanting to make esoteric meaning as something real immediately without unbinding.

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:14 pm

I think you don't need to interpret, because often the meanings are explained within the Sutta itself
Thats right, I was just demonstrating loosely to your question about meanings of the names and places given in suttas, in that there is hidden meanings to some of the literal translations, which can be used to expand the meaning, where does this expansion to meaning take place, that needs to be observed. Thats where etymology becomes a practice of expanding awareness, not limiting it to something definite and fixed within the boundaries of language.

Somethings will obviously be direct in meaning,others maybe more obscure, as the original teachings of Siddharta language structure is from 2500 years, and over years languages change, but whats hidden and concealed in the meaning remains in tact, because its beyond conceptualization of conditioned consciousness, and that is all true dharma students end goal.

If someone was reading from Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan or Chinese texts at that time they may be reading as fluent as we communicate in our natural langues today. Although texts often have more depth than day to day language. Siddharta did not speak in pali he spoke a local dialect Magadhi Prakrit. I tend to side with some accounts that they also spoke or taught in Sanskrit when dealing with higher topics that transcend day to day experience ad conventional language, maybe in the same way we go from English to Pali in the TheravAda traditions today, Pali and the local lanague, it helps broadens things out, helps us to define consciousness in broader ways and offers and opens up new paradigms.

if Siddharta says pass me some water I am thirsty, they isnt any need to second guess it, and start meditating on the inner teachings, just go get him a glass a water.

Some seem obsessed to reduce everything in the texts into English and then conclude everything into a fixed definition, rather than see parts of the texts breaking the boundaries of conventional language into higher domains. Some of this is part social conditioning and is based on naivety and other parts are much more sinister and planned out.
just let the words carry me
:twothumbsup:

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:45 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:14 pm
I think you don't need to interpret, because often the meanings are explained within the Sutta itself
Thats right, I was just demonstrating loosely to your question about meanings of the names and places given in suttas, in that there is hidden meanings to some of the literal translations, which can be used to expand the meaning, where does this expansion to meaning take place, that needs to be observed. Thats where etymology becomes a practice of expanding awareness, not limiting it to something definite and fixed within the boundaries of language.

Somethings will obviously be direct in meaning,others maybe more obscure, as the original teachings of Siddharta language structure is from 2500 years, and over years languages change, but whats hidden and concealed in the meaning remains in tact, because its beyond conceptualization of conditioned consciousness, and that is all true dharma students end goal.
Do you mean that the Buddha taught using hidden meanings? This would appear to run contrary of DN 16:
I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine
Or do you mean that the original meaning of the Buddha's words has been lost? If the latter, how do you know that you are "uncovering" the original meaning, rather than projecting one's own preoccupations onto words which were never intended for such?

markandeya
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:26 pm

Hi Sam
Do you mean that the Buddha taught using hidden meanings? This would appear to run contrary of DN 16:
I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine
Or do you mean that the original meaning of the Buddha's words has been lost? If the latter, how do you know that you are "uncovering" the original meaning, rather than projecting one's own preoccupations onto words which were never intended for such?
I dont think there are hidden meanings in the way you are suggesting, but somethings maybe concealed to the unrefined or modern mind, this may have certain factors, a lot of his teachings were given directly to person he was talking to, just like today there are teachings for beginners and for more advanced, the teachings for beginners would lead them to more advanced teachings, if a new person to dhamma was given teachings on the higher arupa jhanas it would not have any effect, I can give some personal accounts where Ajhan Amaro at Amaravati was reading from his book The Island, most of it just went over most peoples heads, because they wanted to hear how to deal with day to day problems of the mind, so some portions seemed to abstract and not relative to the situation,but that doesnt mean that what he was saying was abstract.

The suttas teachings are not a one size fits all and each sutta is perfectly applicable at all times and circumstances, but it needs skill in application. If everything is spoken as doctrine it would have little effect because we all have unique sets of conditioning, and wisdom will know how to apply each portion of the dhamma accordingly. If I start calling you fred or replying totally out of context all communication looses meaning and becomes impersonal.

Although personally I dont like the word doctrine, to get a better understanding it would be better to include the pali in brackets like they did in the early translations periods of TheravAda.

There is no difference between the esoteric and exoteric, but when there is more conditioning in the exoteric the esoteric goes unnoticed, a bit like when Freud would say that we are usually only aware of the tip of the iceberg and most the iceberg remains submerged. So by applying the teachings we become more aware of the subtle and its direct impact on the external.

I am sure there are many here that are constantly discovering new depths in the teachings, its an ongoing process.

Maha Thera PunnaJi recently passed away, he is someone that was introduced to me by a member in a forum. So I res-listened to one of his talks as an act of respect for his teachings. I can post it if you like as he will be able to explain better than I can type.

I short he says that when the mind is refined in the jhanas when it reemerges back to normal states there is more knowledge gained of the mind and the external

:anjali: .

auto
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:00 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:32 pm

It would be interesting to go through the pali, sounds very simliar to anidassana vinnana. From what I can infer from the English this is another journey through the inner cosmology where Bahiya is turning inwards from sense bases consciousness, where he was having issues, a lot of texts may start from this due to the dissatisfaction of external mind and sense consciousness and one seeks solutions within. I know some sanskrit texts that describe places without sun and moon and beyond name and form and so on this but this is in the wrong forum for to give more details. For better translations it would need someone who has insight into pali and structure sutta.
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ggo-01.htm

“Atthi bhikkhave tad-āyatanaṁ,
“There is that sphere, monks,

yattha neva paṭhavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,

na ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ, na viññānañcāyatanaṁ,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,

na ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,

nāyaṁ loko, na paraloko, na ubho Candimasuriyā.
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.

Tatrāpāhaṁ bhikkhave neva āgatiṁ vadāmi,
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,

na gatiṁ, na ṭhitiṁ, na cutiṁ, na upapattiṁ.
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.

Appatiṭṭhaṁ appavattaṁ anārammaṇam-evetaṁ,
It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,

- esevanto dukkhassā” ti. 01
- just this is the end of suffering.”

auto
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:07 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:14 pm
I think you don't need to interpret, because often the meanings are explained within the Sutta itself
Thats right, I was just demonstrating loosely to your question about meanings of the names and places given in suttas, in that there is hidden meanings to some of the literal translations, which can be used to expand the meaning, where does this expansion to meaning take place, that needs to be observed. Thats where etymology becomes a practice of expanding awareness, not limiting it to something definite and fixed within the boundaries of language.

Somethings will obviously be direct in meaning,others maybe more obscure, as the original teachings of Siddharta language structure is from 2500 years, and over years languages change, but whats hidden and concealed in the meaning remains in tact, because its beyond conceptualization of conditioned consciousness, and that is all true dharma students end goal.

If someone was reading from Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan or Chinese texts at that time they may be reading as fluent as we communicate in our natural langues today. Although texts often have more depth than day to day language. Siddharta did not speak in pali he spoke a local dialect Magadhi Prakrit. I tend to side with some accounts that they also spoke or taught in Sanskrit when dealing with higher topics that transcend day to day experience ad conventional language, maybe in the same way we go from English to Pali in the TheravAda traditions today, Pali and the local lanague, it helps broadens things out, helps us to define consciousness in broader ways and offers and opens up new paradigms.

if Siddharta says pass me some water I am thirsty, they isnt any need to second guess it, and start meditating on the inner teachings, just go get him a glass a water.

Some seem obsessed to reduce everything in the texts into English and then conclude everything into a fixed definition, rather than see parts of the texts breaking the boundaries of conventional language into higher domains. Some of this is part social conditioning and is based on naivety and other parts are much more sinister and planned out.
just let the words carry me
:twothumbsup:

:anjali:
i hear you now, the importance of translations.

https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/pli/ms#14--15
anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimucci
this seem to be one of the thing in multiple Udana Suttas. I were looking different kinds of translations, and i would say im not satisfied yet.

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:55 pm

anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimucci
this seem to be one of the thing in multiple Udana Suttas. I were looking different kinds of translations, and i would say im not satisfied yet.
I dont know this sutta, I dont want to attempt to translate it until I get a feel for the sutta, but what you have posted above is interesting.

Maybe some other members can help translate the meaning of this and open it up for discussing and help each other to draw out more meaning and see where it leads.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by auto » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:15 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:55 pm
anupādāya āsavehi cittaṃ vimucci
this seem to be one of the thing in multiple Udana Suttas. I were looking different kinds of translations, and i would say im not satisfied yet.
I dont know this sutta, I dont want to attempt to translate it until I get a feel for the sutta, but what you have posted above is interesting.

Maybe some other members can help translate the meaning of this and open it up for discussing and help each other to draw out more meaning and see where it leads.

:anjali:
yo,

https://suttacentral.net/mn85/en/sujato
Then Brahmā Sahampati, knowing what I was thinking, thought: ‘Oh my goodness! The world will be lost, the world will perish! For the mind of the Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, inclines to remaining passive, not to teaching the Dhamma.’ Then Brahmā Sahampati, as easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, vanished from the Brahmā realm and reappeared in front of the Buddha. He arranged his robe over one shoulder, knelt on his right knee, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha, and said: ‘Sir, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the Holy One teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes. They’re in decline because they haven’t heard the teaching. There will be those who understand the teaching!’ That’s what Brahmā Sahampati said. Then he went on to say:

‘Among the Magadhans there appeared in the past
an impure teaching thought up by those still stained.
Fling open the door to the deathless!
Let them hear the teaching the stainless one discovered.

Standing high on a rocky mountain,
you can see the people all around.
In just the same way, all-seer, wise one,
ascend the palace built of Dhamma!

You’re free of sorrow; but look at these people
overwhelmed with sorrow, oppressed by rebirth and old age.
Rise, hero! Victor in battle, leader of the caravan,
wander the world without obligation.
Let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma!
There will be those who understand!’

Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, I surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, because of my compassion for sentient beings. And I saw sentient beings with little dust in their eyes, and some with much dust in their eyes; with keen faculties and with weak faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach. And some of them lived seeing the danger in the flaw to do with the next world, while others did not. It’s like a pool with blue water lilies, or pink or white lotuses. Some of them sprout and grow in the water without rising above it, thriving underwater. Some of them sprout and grow in the water reaching the water’s surface. And some of them sprout and grow in the water but rise up above the water and stand with no water clinging to them. Then I replied in verse to Brahmā Sahampati:

‘Flung open are the doors to the deathless!
Let those with ears to hear decide their faith.
Thinking it would be troublesome, Brahmā, I did not teach
the sophisticated, sublime Dhamma among humans.’
Any esoteric interpretations?

also it seem Brahma can appear in this world. Did Brahma know the teachings so why did he/she don't become stream entry..

also eye of the Buddha, hmm..

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