Third Eye Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:17 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:35 pm
:juggling:

Speechless really......

Simple for the simple, impossible for the crooked.

Just one question, does everything have to reduced into a old school biblical study of texts where literal definitions are the only thing held as valid.

Its an outdated mode Mike


But if I can find something, which I wont make to much effort to look I will post it in capitol letters, i doubt it will have any impact for true paradigm shift, will just be anther structured belief based on wording in a mundane language.

Why not try to open the dhamma eye yourself, then everything is far more simple. Covering up and mistranslating the wisdom or intermediate part of the any ancient teachings was the prime job of monotheistic materialists.

:anjali:
I'm sorry you find it out dated.

Since I have no idea who you are, what your background is, or what your experience is, I have no way of judging your claims about the Dhamma Eye.

Do keep in mind that this is a forum for discussing Buddhist texts and practices. There may well be other useful approaches out there, but life is too short to investigate all of them.

Best Wishes,

:heart:
Mike

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:07 am

Hi Mike

You keep missing the point, I am not saying to disregard the suttas and not study them. The mode of always verifying anything only by written quotes is an out of date mode, this doesn't mean that the suttas are rejected or any of the ancient texts. Most of the real understanding is in-between the words, not limited to the words., and may come as suprise that its foreign to the dharma traditions to study them in this way.

The thing that is tripping most literal people is that the Third eye is somehow only belonging to Hindu traditions, thats like saying we only have water in English speaking countries and other countries have a foreign version and cant really be considered as water, even if it looks similar, if it doesnt say water on the bottle when abroad its probably not the same thing, for me that is bordering on insanity or certainly a closed and crystallized form of reasoning, I will refrain from using the word intellect.

Doesn't matter who I am, post should be read in more trans personal ways, this is the way dhamma is communicated. After Gotama was enlightened he did not refer to himself or his teachings as coming from siddharta prince of Sakhya. Thinking like this is again falling for materialistic mode of ego based individual knowledge source, another outdated mode. Suttas are transcendental knowledge spoken and recorded by awakened beings, why do people always want to reduce them to fit into tiny cavities of limited vessels.

i posted Ajahn Chahs video not because of the heading but for the teaching he gave, he was a living breathing sutta, carrying the message of Gotama, who carried the same message of all Buddhas, we just help reflect that same essence, by refining and perfecting the dhamma, its always a living tradition.

:anjali:

The Truth Is Always the Same

Many well read people would comment that Luang Pu's teachings were very similar to those of Zen or the Platform Sutra. I asked him about this many times, and finally he replied in an trans-personal way.

" All the Truths of the Dharma are already present in the world. When the Buddha Awakened to those Truths, he brought them out to teach to the beings of the world. Now, because those beings had different propensities - coarse or refined - he had to use up a lot of words: 84,0000 sections of dharma in all. When wise people try to select the words best suited to explain the Truth to those who aim at the Truth, they have to use the methods of the Truth that, on reflection, are the most corrected and complete, without worrying about the words or getting fixated on the letters of the texts in the least way at all."

Gifts He Left Behind

The Dharma Legacy of Phra Ajaan Dune Atulo

paul
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by paul » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:25 pm

Description of nimitta (conceptual breath, counterpart) arising from Pa Auk student:

“In the morning session that came right after breakfast, it felt like I kind of “nailed it” for a few instants. I got a pretty clear, bright and round Nimitta for what felt like a few seconds. Obviously though, I couldn’t help but get excited so it quickly faded away. I think that the key thing in “nailing” the conceptual breath was to seek and find the only constant and unchanging part of the breath, which is the mental conceptualization of it. Note that this concept is not “ultimately real”, it’s just an idea, an agglomerate of diverse sensations that we identify as the breath.

I went to my teacher to describe my experience, and he told me that I got the “light”, as he called it, very quickly. He proceeded to tell me that this was likely because I had practiced this technique in a recent past life. I’m skeptical about that claim. He told me to keep practicing and that if sensations arose, not to fight them but to keep the attention on the conceptual breath. There’s no point in seeing sensations as enemies. In this concentration practice, they are seen as an indicator that the breath is present. They shouldn’t be the primary focus of attention.”
https://www.updevelopment.org/pa-auk-tawya/

Note: This is where the Visuddhimagga method diverges from Thanissaro's, where the instruction would be to focus on the pleasant sensations.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Crazy cloud » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:12 pm

FCIM wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:32 am
Thanks all. So, if I understand correctly, third eye meditation is actually counterintuitive to following the Buddhist path?
There are many interesting things going on which is not talked about because of many reasons. I do whatever kind of effort that fits n8fp, and i don't care about definitions floating about like "Buddhist"


Direct knowing now
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:56 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:12 pm
FCIM wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:32 am
Thanks all. So, if I understand correctly, third eye meditation is actually counterintuitive to following the Buddhist path?
There are many interesting things going on which is not talked about because of many reasons. I do whatever kind of effort that fits n8fp, and i don't care about definitions floating about like "Buddhist"


Direct knowing now
:goodpost:

Ajna chakra is the non physical psychic center of our being, or the wisdom eye which opens up with practice. Maybe in physcial terms its associated with the pineal gland.

The suttas are encoded and may not exactly give direct reference to todays chakra equivalents or the yoga traditions word for word literally, but they are there....

Once, Assalayana, this evil viewpoint arose in the seven brahman seers as they were consulting together in leaf huts in the wilderness: 'Brahmans are the superior caste; any other caste is inferior. Only brahmans are the fair caste; any other caste is dark. Only brahmans are pure, not non-brahmans. Only brahmans are the sons & offspring of Brahma: born of his mouth, born of Brahma, created by Brahma, heirs of Brahma.' Then the seer Devala the Dark heard.( corrupted translation)

Assalayana Sutta

Seven Brahmans are the corrupted states of the malfunction of the seven psychic points or chakra bases. Leaf Huts is the body and wilderness is avijjā~avidyā

Devala rishi (seer) appears in both the pali traditions and mahabharata. He was not dark he was golden, dark only means he is obscured or hidden from normal sense and mind consciousness.

There is also reference to whats known as Kundalini rising up Meru in kevatta sutta, plenty of images of the Buddha with the symbol of third eye or wisdom eye , bindu~point between his eyes, middle of forehead.

:anjali:
Last edited by markandeya on Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:14 am

Please note that this section is for General Theravada Meditation. Interpretation and techniques which veer too far into other traditions are welcome in the "Other Paths" section, but not here. Such posts will be moved.

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:19 am

HI Sam

Then maybe move it to connections to others paths , then its ok to be open and more free flowing, and wont disturb the illiterate fixed definitions.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:31 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:19 am
HI Sam

Then maybe move it to connections to others paths , then its ok to be open and more free flowing, and wont disturb the illiterate fixed definitions.
I'm going to leave it here for the time being, because there is some useful and relevant stuff in it. If members want to post material about Suttas which includes a non-Buddhist interpretation, they can start a new thread in the "Connections" section. This is a request that members remain on-topic.

I haven't seen any "illiterate fixed definitions" here, and the thread as a whole was doing quite nicely.

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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:40 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:31 am
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:19 am
HI Sam

Then maybe move it to connections to others paths , then its ok to be open and more free flowing, and wont disturb the illiterate fixed definitions.
I'm going to leave it here for the time being, because there is some useful and relevant stuff in it. If members want to post material about Suttas which includes a non-Buddhist interpretation, they can start a new thread in the "Connections" section. This is a request that members remain on-topic.

I haven't seen any "illiterate fixed definitions" here, and the thread as a whole was doing quite nicely.
Thanks Sam, but usually when a new topic gets opened it often loses momentum, and I agree that the thread is going fine as it is, but if it gets to a point where you think it transgresses the forum rules then I would humbly ask to just move the whole thing, then there is a more open platform rather than delete comments.

By "illiterate fixed definitions" what I mean is that there is far to much meaning given to English translations as the definite meaning and final meaning. Obviously we need things translated into local languages, as many will know that Siddharta Gautama did not speak in Pali, as Pali is a grammatical system to write texts, but to keep limiting them to English or that English and modern educational ways of learning is somehow the final verdict of the complex grammar that texts are written in is illiterate, both in cultural terms and language, and personally I feel it limits the learners understanding of Buddha Dharma per Theravada tradition.

I read here one of the Bikkhus actually saying that Pali is not important and discouraged a person wanting to learn it and said its usually a language that was spoken amongst monks. Unfortunate.....

With Metta

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:10 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:40 am

Thanks Sam, but usually when a new topic gets opened it often loses momentum, and I agree that the thread is going fine as it is, but if it gets to a point where you think it transgresses the forum rules then I would humbly ask to just move the whole thing, then there is a more open platform rather than delete comments.
Sure, but threads don't transgress forum rules - members do. It's better if members could refrain from that, as there is every opportunity to start new threads.
By "illiterate fixed definitions" what I mean is that there is far to much meaning given to English translations as the definite meaning and final meaning.
Understood, but that's a good topic for a new thread, so avoiding meta-discussion.

And now,

:focus:

:anjali:

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by Crazy cloud » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:46 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:56 am

The suttas are encoded and may not exactly give direct reference to todays chakra equivalents or the yoga traditions word for word literally, but they are there....
My experience is that people gets a bit jumpy when one opens up for other views, and the best thing to do is to just keep on practice alone. I have no doubt or problem with the concepts of chakras, and are at this moment into deepening the practice around it. But as I said before, there are a lot of interesting "stuff" around, but monks are not allowed to share fantastic practice, and based on my own direct experiences, maybe that is the best in the long run, because when one gets closer to powers like this, it also becomes very clear that one must have pure hands or one might get burned badly

If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:12 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:46 am
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:56 am

The suttas are encoded and may not exactly give direct reference to todays chakra equivalents or the yoga traditions word for word literally, but they are there....
My experience is that people gets a bit jumpy when one opens up for other views, and the best thing to do is to just keep on practice alone. I have no doubt or problem with the concepts of chakras, and are at this moment into deepening the practice around it. But as I said before, there are a lot of interesting "stuff" around, but monks are not allowed to share fantastic practice, and based on my own direct experiences, maybe that is the best in the long run, because when one gets closer to powers like this, it also becomes very clear that one must have pure hands or one might get burned badly

Hi Crazy cloud,

I agree, although the 7 psychic centers play a central role in the psychology or consciousness states of all beings, that is all that we are made up of one way or another. Certain teachings are naturally inferred with the development of practice and skill comes in how they are communicated and should directly impact the level of being of the person to move them/us forward. Over the internet is quite difficult because people will be often only be seeing one context with only each singular view.

The suttas are complete, not only as a collection or full body as in tripitaka but also individually as individual suttas, the deeper our insights go the more even one sutta will reveal dhammas that were initially not recognized, this is where fixed ideas and concrete statements fall short of understanding the natural expansion in relation to our experience when reading or contemplating the texts as guides for development on the path. My knowledge and experience is limited, but even then i do refrain as much as possible from sharing some portions of teachings online due to readers having complex forms of varying levels of awareness.

I think this is the strength of ThervAvada to keep the subtle more esoteric teachings not as apparent and their wisdom is deal with the more direct worldly dhammas which require more effort and work on. Once these are transcended to some degree new forms of communication and language naturally open up without much discord, discord is related to blockages in the lower chakras or psychic centres where worldly desires and sense contacts are more prominent.

sometimes we have to just say what to do :shrug: , and lets hope for more maturing within the process. I still think certain factors that are related to debilitating conditions in the dhamma need to be addressed in a without sentiment, especially fixed idea and sectarianism, which have no place in dhamma margs. When natural wisdom arises it will attract beings of the same nature, it may be less quantitative but more qualitative.

:anjali:


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DooDoot
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:20 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:37 pm
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

the dharma vision: dharma-cakṣu [dhamma-cakkhu] that is the vision that enters everything to see the truth that makes men free from the cycle of birth and death

Chakkhu, its opened in the wisdom states or arupa jhanas.
Not necessarily the Hindu third-eye. Also, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta does not mention any arupa jhanas. Also, SN 13.1 is about the stream-enterer; that has the Dhamma-Eye; but no jhanas.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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budo
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by budo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:07 pm

FCIM wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:07 pm
Hi,

Has anyone any experience of third eye meditation? I've started doing it every so often over the last couple of weeks and am gradually starting to see colours etc. during meditation and almost get a feeling of seeing with my eyes closed (not that I can see what is in front of me with my eyes closed but almost as if there's something there which I can see - though I can't discern what it is other than colours). Just wondering if there is anybody here with a deeper experience of this as I would be interested in learning where I can go with it. Another thing I notice is a strange tightness or stress right in the centre of my forehead and sometimes sensations around it.

Sorry if this already has a thread or if this isn't the correct area of the forum - I'm now.
Focusing on the orb nimitta between my eyes gave me the seeing with my eyes closed you describe. This was last year and I did it everyday to the point where it got so strong that I saw the orb nimitta even with my eyes open and after meditation, at night had very strong hallucinations and I saw beings like devas. I can't say if it's my mind making it up or if it's objective reality. This also led to insomnia as I had way too much concentration to fall asleep, so I would meditate and enter jhanas in the middle of the night.

This may have been a product of 4th jhana and IS buddhist meditation, or it may be a product of the orb nimitta in which case focusing on the nimitta according to the suttas and patisambhidamagga isn't proper technique.

Regardless, experiment and see for yourself, I personally didn't pursue it further at the time as I went on a mahasi vipassana retreat shortly after that episode happened.

These days I don't force anything, if the orb nimitta comes and I feel like pursuing it then I will but usually I'll focus on jhanas through the traditional route of rapture and sukha and the other jhana factors.

markandeya
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Re: Third Eye Meditation

Post by markandeya » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:23 am

Another example of the seven chakka as chariots
"Answering in this way, my friend, he would answer them correctly: 'Just now, as I was staying at Savatthi, some urgent business arose at Saketa; and between Savatthi and Saketa seven relay chariots were made ready for me. Coming out the door of the inner palace in Savatthi, I got in the first relay chariot. By means of the first relay chariot I reached the second relay chariot. Getting out of the first relay chariot I got in the second relay chariot. By means of the second relay chariot I reached the third... by means of the third I reached the fourth... by means of the fourth, the fifth... by means of the fifth, the sixth... by means of the sixth I reached the seventh relay chariot. Getting out of the sixth relay chariot I got in the seventh relay chariot. By means of the seventh relay chariot I finally arrived at the door of the inner palace at Saketa.' Answering in this way, he would answer them correctly.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Saketa has an equvilent but since this thread is not in connection to other paths I will leave for further individual research

:anjali:

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