Mindfulness of Breathing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm

imho:
1) Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
2) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.'
3) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication[mn.118]."


(1-3) "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications[sn41.006].
On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body '; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world[DN22].

4) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'
5) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'
6) 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.'
7) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication[mn.118].'


(4-7) Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications [sn41.006]."
"And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling.' When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'"When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.'"In this way he remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves, or externally on feelings in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on feelings in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings. Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves[DN22].


8) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.'
9) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'
10) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.'
11) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind[mn.118].'


(8-11) "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion."When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released. "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself [DN22]

12) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.'
13) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'
14) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.'
15) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment[mn.118].'


(12-15) 'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change [sn36.011].
Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops mindfulness as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops investigation of the Dhamma as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops energy as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops exaltation[rapture] as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops serenity as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops concentration as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment; he develops equanimity as a factor of awakening that is founded on detachment, founded on dispassion, founded on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu endowed with fruitful considerations develops the seven factors of awakening, increases the seven factors of awakening [SN 46.32].

Jhanas:
There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation [DN22]. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal[an05.028]. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications.[SN41.6] When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased [SN36.11]. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has been calmed[sn36.011].

With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance [DN22] . When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased [SN36.11] . When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have been calmed [sn36.011].

With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding [DN22] .' When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased [SN36.11] . When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been calmed [sn36.011] .

With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain [DN22] . When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased [SN36.11] . When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been calmed [sn36.011].

When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased.
When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased.
When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased.
When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased [SN36.11]. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been calmed [sn36.011].

additional:

One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm [mn.140].
This state[...]is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding [SN 6.1].
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:32 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
imho:
1-2) Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
3) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.'
4) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication[mn.118]."


(1-4) "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications[sn41.006].
On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body '; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world[DN22].
"He trains himself" = three trainings of higher morality, higher mind (concentration) and higher wisdom (AN 4.245).

"In-&-out breaths is the bodily fabricator. In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things the body is dependent upon/connected to. That's why in-&-out breaths is the bodily fabricator" [just as the vaci sankhara - initial & sustained thought - as cause - is the verbal fabricator - the effect. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators].

[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to all kaya.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to all kaya.'

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body (kaya) among bodies (kaya)... MN 118

[3] He trains himself in three trainings: experiencing how the nama-kaya effects the breath-kaya and how this effects the rupa-kaya. He trains himself in morality, concentration and insight.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
fwiw:
When practicing ānāpānasati, you put your attention on the physical sensations associated with breathing [Leigh Brasington].
According to Leigh Brasington but not according to the Buddha.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
Just as a gatekeeper does not examine people inside and outside the town, asking, “Who are you? Where have you come from? Where are you going? What have you got in your hand?”—for those people are not his concern—but he does examine each man as he arrives at the gate, so too, the incoming breaths that have gone inside and the outgoing breaths that have gone outside are not this bhikkhu’s concern, but they are his concern each time they arrive at the [nostril] gate itself [Vsm].
According to Vsm but not according to the Buddha. Assuming the instruction is "sensitive to the entire body", how will this be done if "incoming breaths that have gone inside are not this bhikkhu’s concern"? :shrug:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
Suppose there were a tree trunk placed on a level piece of ground, and a man cut it with a saw. The man’s mindfulness is established by the saw’s teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw’s teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unknown to him as they do so; and he manifests effort, carries out a task, and achieves an effect. As the tree trunk placed on the level piece of ground, so the sign for the anchoring of mindfulness. As the saw’s teeth, so the in-breaths and out-breaths. As the man’s mindfulness, established by the saw’s teeth where they touch the tree trunk, without his giving attention to the saw’s teeth as they approach and recede, though they are not unknown to him as they do so, and so he manifests effort, carries out a task, and achieves an effect, so too, the bhikkhu sits, having established mindfulness at the nose tip or on the upper lip, without giving attention to the in-breaths and out-breaths as they approach and recede, though they are not unknown to him as they do so, and he manifests effort, carries out a task, and achieves an effect[Vsm].
Mindfulness appears to mean to "remember" or "keep in mind" (SN 48/10) rather than sense awareness that "touches an object". What touches an object is consciousness. It appears the Buddha taught "mindfulness when/with breathing" rather than "mindful of breathing". Mindfulness acts to keep wisdom (right view) in the mind.

Of those, right view is the forerunner. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. MN 117

:smile:

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:32 pm
[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to all kaya.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to all kaya.'

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body (kaya) among bodies (kaya)... MN 118
yes i also think that this is probably the meaning

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:34 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
5) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'
6) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'
7) 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.'
8) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication[mn.118].'


(4-7) Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications [sn41.006]."

"And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling.' When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'"When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.'"In this way he remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves, or externally on feelings in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on feelings in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings. Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves[DN22].
The next important term to straighten out is "citta sankhara". The quote from DN 22 above refers only to feelings (vedana). Similarly, the four stages of MN 118 above should be only about feelings. "Feelings" are "citta sankhara" because feelings can influence the citta to construct greed, hatred & delusion, towards those feelings, as written in many suttas, such as below:
When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

MN 148
Therefore, particularly with rapture in MN 118, stage 7 is to observe how rapture pushes & pulls the mind (citta) around due to the intensity of the rapture. AB & BB describe below:
However, the bliss is so delicious that it can generate [sankhara] a small residue of attachment [in the citta]. The mind [citta], not the doer, instinctively grasps [sankhara] at the bliss. Because the bliss of First Jhana is fuelled by letting go, such involuntary grasping weakens the bliss. Seeing the bliss weaken, the mind automatically lets go of its grasping and the bliss increases in power again. The mind then grasps again, then lets go again. Such subtle involuntary movement gives rise to the wobble of First Jhana.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
Now we come to step seven: "experiencing the mind­-conditioner (cittasankhara-patisamvedi)." If we have completed step six successfully, then we know all about the feelings of piti and sukha. What does the arising of piti do to the citta? What does the arising of sukha do to the citta? What kind of thoughts does piti condition? What kind of thoughts does sukha condition? We have noted and scrutinized these effects since steps five and six. Once we come to step seven, it is easy to realize that, "Oh, piti and sukha are mind-conditioners." These vedana are mind-conditioners in the same way that the breath is the body-conditioner. The method of study and observation is the same as in step three.

We have observed that piti is coarse and excited, whereas sukha is fine and peaceful. Thus, when piti conditions or brews up a thought, the thought is coarse. On the other hand, when sukha brews up a thought, it is calm and tranquil. This is how we realize that the vedana condition thoughts. Then we realize that the feelings condition both coarse thoughts and subtle thoughts. We call this activity "conditioning the mind."

When piti is strong, it causes trembling in the body. And if it is very strong the body might even dance or bounce with joy. This feel­ing is coarse and powerful. On the other hand, sukha is calming, soothing, and relaxing. We learn that their characteristics are very different. When piti dominates the mind, it is impossible to think subtle thoughts. We feel a tingling all over; it makes the hair stand up all over our bodies. So we need to be able to control piti. Sukha, however, has advantages. It leads to tranquil, refined states. It can cause subtle, profound, and refined thoughts. It is as if these two feelings are opponents or foes. But that does not matter, for we know how to regulate them. We are able to control them by training according to the method we are now practicing. Just this much is to understand the citta-sankhara reasonably well already.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
The rapture is the 'citta sankhara' because it potentially conditions the citta to greed, hatred & delusion; the best example is of when delusion is conditioned with the idea: "I have attained jhana".

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:24 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
5) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.'
6) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'
7) 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.'
8) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication[mn.118].'

...
Citta sankhara (mental fabrications) are ultimately calmed with the attainment of cessation of perception & feeling [SN36.11]or simply a path[sn22.56] and the bodily fabrication[breath] is ultimately calmed with the attainment of the fourth jhana[SN36.11].

Once concentrated feelings & perceptions born of seclusion start to arise such as sukhavedana, rapture as well as perceptions of lights and signs. The cause for their disappearance is to be investigated along with various mindstates[mn128].
15. “Good, good, Anuruddha. But while you abide thus diligent, ardent, and resolute, have you attained any superhuman states, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding?”

“Venerable sir, as we abide here diligent, ardent, and resolute, we perceive both light and a vision of forms. Soon afterwards the light and the vision of forms disappear, but we have not discovered the cause for that.”

16. “You should discover the cause for that, Anuruddha. Before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, I too perceived both light and a vision of forms. Soon afterwards the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of the doubt my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that doubt will not arise in me again.’

17. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived both light and a vision of forms. Soon afterward the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition why the light and the vision of forms have disappeared?’ Then I considered thus: ‘Inattention arose in me, and because of inattention my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention will arise in me again.’

18. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Sloth and torpor arose in me, and because of sloth and torpor my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention nor sloth and torpor will arise in me again.’

19. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Fear arose in me, and because of fear my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man set out on a journey and murderers leaped out on both sides of him; then fear would arise in him because of that. So too, fear arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention nor sloth and torpor nor fear will arise in me again.’

20. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Elation arose in me, and because of elation my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man seeking one entrance to a hidden treasure came all at once upon five entrances to a hidden treasure; then elation would arise in him because of that. So too, elation arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor fear nor elation will arise in me again.’

21. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Inertia arose in me, and because of inertia my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor elation nor inertia will arise in me again.’

22. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Excess of energy arose in me, and because of excess of energy my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man were to grip a quail tightly with both hands; it would die then and there. So too, an excess of energy arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor inertia nor excess of energy will arise in me again.’

23. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Deficiency of energy arose in me, and because of deficiency of energy my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared.’ Suppose a man were to grip a quail loosely; it would fly out of his hands. So too, a deficiency of energy arose in me…the light and the vision of forms disappeared. [I considered thus:] ‘I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor excess of energy nor deficiency of energy will arise in me again.’

24. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Longing arose in me, and because of that longing my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor deficiency of energy nor longing will arise in me again.’

25. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Perception of diversity arose in me, and because of perception of diversity my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor longing nor perception of diversity will arise in me again.’

26. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent…I considered thus: ‘Excessive meditation upon forms arose in me, and because of excessive meditation upon forms my concentration fell away; when my concentration fell away, the light and the vision of forms disappeared. I shall so act that neither doubt nor inattention…nor perception of diversity nor excessive meditation upon forms will arise in me again.’

27. “When, Anuruddha, I understood that doubt is an imperfection of the mind, I abandoned doubt, an imperfection of the mind. When I understood that inattention…sloth and torpor…fear…elation…inertia…excess of energy…deficiency of energy…longing…perception of diversity…excessive meditation upon forms is an imperfection of the mind, I abandoned excessive meditation upon forms, an imperfection of the mind.

28. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived light but I did not see forms; I saw forms but I did not perceive light, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition for this?’ Then I considered thus: ‘On the occasion when I do not attend to the sign of forms but attend to the sign of light, I then perceive light but do not see forms. On the occasion when I do not attend to the sign of light but attend to the sign of forms, I then see forms but do not perceive light, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night.’

29. “As, Anuruddha, I was abiding diligent, ardent, and resolute, I perceived limited light and saw limited forms; I perceived immeasurable light and saw immeasurable forms, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night. I thought: ‘What is the cause and condition for this?’ Then I considered thus: ‘On the occasion when concentration is limited, my vision is limited, and with limited vision I perceive limited light and limited forms. But on the occasion when concentration is immeasurable, my vision is immeasurable, and with immeasurable vision I perceive immeasurable light and see immeasurable forms, even for a whole night or a whole day or a whole day and night.’

30. “When, Anuruddha, I understood that doubt is an imperfection of the mind and had abandoned doubt, an imperfection of the mind; when I understood that inattention is an imperfection of the mind and had abandoned inattention…abandoned sloth and torpor…abandoned fear…abandoned elation…abandoned inertia…abandoned excess of energy…abandoned deficiency of energy…abandoned longing…abandoned perception of diversity…abandoned excessive meditation upon forms, an imperfection of the mind; then I thought: ‘I have abandoned those imperfections of the mind. Let me now develop concentration in three ways.’

31. “Thereupon, Anuruddha, I developed concentration with applied thought and sustained thought; I developed concentration without applied thought but with sustained thought only; I developed concentration without applied thought and without sustained thought; I developed concentration with rapture; I developed concentration without rapture; I developed concentration accompanied by enjoyment; I developed concentration accompanied by equanimity.
...
[mn128]
So this tetrad is very instructive in regards to development of the jhanas but also the earlier stages and the practice in general.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:53 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:37 pm
10) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.'
Here a reference for what is meant by steadying the mind imho;
Samyutta Nikaya 40.1
The First Jhana
...
5. "Then friends, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful (mental) qualities -- I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & happiness born of seclusion, accompanied by initial & sustained thinking. When abiding in the first jhana, sensual perceptions and thoughts assailed me.

6 Then the Blessed One approached me by psychic power and said: `Moggallana, Noble Man! Do not be negligent! Steady your mind in the first jhana, unify your mind in the first jhana, concentrate your mind in the first jhana.'
...
here is a similar instruction but a different absorbtion;
...
"Then, friends, paying no attention to any distinguishing signs, I entered on and dwelt in that concentration of the heart which is without signs. But as I dwelt thus,[4] the consciousness-conforming-to-signs arose.[5]

"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'
...

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:17 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:24 am
Citta sankhara (mental fabrications) are ultimately calmed with the attainment of cessation of perception & feeling [SN36.11]
Maybe but this is not the meaning of stage 8 of MN 118 (because, after stage 8, the citta stages are revealed). Similarly, at jhana level, the calming of piti & sukha result in the 4th jhana.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:53 pm
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.'
Imo, this does not refer to jhana because awareness of breathing remains. Imo, all of MN 118 is neighbourhood concentration.

Regards :smile:

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:17 am
Imo, all of MN 118 is neighbourhood concentration.
I disagree but i see why you would think that. I think it refers to general development of satipatthana, five faculties and factors of enlightenment but i do think that it encompasses the jhana level concentration.

User avatar
_anicca_
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:44 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by _anicca_ » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:23 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:53 pm
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.'
Imo, this does not refer to jhana because awareness of breathing remains. Imo, all of MN 118 is neighbourhood concentration.
[/quote]

The factors he list accompanying the knowledge of respiration are not part of access concentration. Your mind stays knowing if the breath is there or not.

It depends on what take of jhana you subscribe to.

Even access concentration is good enough.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 am
i do think that it encompasses the jhana level concentration.
Knowing breathing is not a factor of jhana; as written in the texts. Every step of MN 118 includes knowing of breathing.
_anicca_ wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:23 pm
The factors he list accompanying the knowledge of respiration are not part of access concentration. Your mind stays knowing if the breath is there or not.
Access concentration is "real concentration" that leads to supramundane realisation of a real stream-enterer. Every step of MN 118 includes knowing of breathing.
_anicca_ wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:23 pm
It depends on what take of jhana you subscribe to.
Indeed. Most appear to be "over-estimating" when they refer to "jhana". Only by actual realisation the differences will be known. Since it is wrong to make personal declarations of attainment; we can only debate what is written in the texts. The texts do not include breathing as a factor of jhana.

Since many commentators & meditators have mentioned "access vs jhana" concentration; while these terms are not in the Pali suttas; they do provide an explanation of the textual difference between the Anapanansati of MN 118 & the sutta descriptions of jhana.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:38 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:19 pm
Knowing breathing is not a factor of jhana; as written in the texts. Every step of MN 118 includes knowing of breathing.
what do you mean by this? presumably one can still be mindful of breathing until 4th jhana. as the following has not been stated about the 1st, 2nd or the 3rd jhana
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
...
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been calmed [sn36.011]
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:44 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:38 pm
what do you mean by this?
[16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' MN 118
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:38 pm
presumably one can still be mindful of breathing until 4th jhana
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
...
When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has been calmed [sn36.011]
Not necessarily. Once rapture & happiness cease to be to objects dominating the landing of consciousness, the 4th jhana may merely be the awareness that the purified kaya is not discernibly breathing. SN 36.11 may not be saying the breathing is known; but instead; may be saying the breathing is not known.

The standard commentarial texts, including by modern meditation teachers, appear to say when the breathing is calmed just prior to the 1st jhana that the mind-made nimitta replaces the breathing as the anchor of meditation; that the nimitta (and other jhana factors) signifies the 1st jhana.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:06 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:44 pm
The standard commentarial texts, including by modern meditation teachers, appear to say when the breathing is calmed just prior to the 1st jhana that the mind-made nimitta replaces the breathing as the anchor of meditation; that the nimitta (and other jhana factors) signifies the 1st jhana.
The nimitta is also not listed as a jhana factor so following your methodology there should be no nimitta in jhana either... also i don't know anybody saying that the breath can not be discerned and totally disappears prior to the first jhana. Here ie from Ledi Sayadaw's Manual:
When through the coarse out-breaths and in-breaths becoming calmed down and allayed, the anxieties and cares of the body become tranquillized, both body and mind become light. At this point there may arise various mental images; the first type is the parikamma-nimitta,which refers to the perception of the object at the very beginning of concentration -it is also known as the "preparatory image or sign."
...
When the mind reaches a weak degree of concentration, a still unsteady and unclear image or sign called the "acquired sign" (uggaha-nimitta) arises. Here, one should keep putting forth effort to keep the attention on the “spot of touch,” and to perceive every out-breath and in-breath.
..
Upon reaching a state where the out-breaths and in-breaths disappear, then, without taking the attention off the “spot of touch,” an attempt must be made to perceive the disappeared out-breaths and in-breaths. When they are perceived again clearly, the counterpart sign (paṭibhāga-nimitta) appears, an entirely clear and static image called the "counter-image" or "counter-sign" manifestations appear such as masses of fluffy wool, gusts of wind, clusters of stars, gems, pearls, or strings of pearls, etc., in various shapes, groups, and colours. These are called counterpart signs. One should keep putting forth effort to keep the attention on the “spot of touch,” and to perceive every out-breath and in-breath until such time as the counterpart sign appears clearly on every occasion that effort is made.
Imo the question is rather whether or not one should take the piti or the nimitta as the primary object or stay with the breath until the 4th jhana and if switching when to do so. Here are cliffs from an article by Ven. Subhuti:
When one practices meditation based on the breath, it is possible for the light to come and when that happens and it is stable one can use that light to enter samadhi absorption concentration.
As the mind gets more concentrated on the concept of the breath, a mental image will appear. If it is bouncing here and there and not in the same place as the breath, or does not stick around for a long time, that is good, but not good enough. At this stage you are able to see the light, but not a nimitta. Keep trying focusing only on the breath. Eventually the physical breath and the mental image of the breath will become unified together. When that happens, you can drop the breath and continue to focus on the image. It will seem as though there is a phantom breath still present as you “see”, yet you are not feeling the breath. You are in a state of “knowing and seeing” the breath but not feeling the breath. This is good. You now have a pure Nimitta that is not mixed with the physical breath.
I am not sure how it works tho
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:09 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:06 pm
The nimitta is also not listed as a jhana factor so following your methodology there should be no nimitta in jhana either...
True. But all I was saying was breathing is not mentioned in jhana sutta and nimitta (replacing breathing) is mentioned by various commentators thus both are not in conflict. Also, nimitta can equate to the ekkaggata factor because a part of the mind gets glued to the nimitta; making it unmoving. But, yes, nimitta is not literally mentioned in jhana sutta.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:06 pm
Imo the question is rather whether and if one should take the piti or the nimitta as the primary object or stay with the breath until the 4th jhana.
When the mind makes it to jhana, I imagine all five factors will arise & exist together, simultaneously. Thus piti & the nimitta will exist and be experienced together.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Mindfulness of Breathing

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:23 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:09 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:06 pm
Imo the question is rather whether and if one should take the piti or the nimitta as the primary object or stay with the breath until the 4th jhana.
When the mind makes it to jhana, I imagine all five factors will arise & exist together, simultaneously. Thus piti & the nimitta will exist and be experienced together.
i have no idea as i have not reached the 1st jhana. When i sit i feel pleasure, serenity and breath gets calmed, if i sit long enough i get to a point where intense pleasant feeling comes as a full bodyhigh, it is similar every time and assume it to be piti but i have not been able to keep it going, presumably because i get excited and try different things each time it arises.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests