Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
paul
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Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by paul » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 am


TRobinson465
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:57 am

paul wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 am
Secret to survival:
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/9/17548512/t ... n-buddhism
Oh yes, I heard of this. great story! I wouldnt say secret to survival because most humans can survive without food for more than 10 days. Although it was great for helping them cope mentally and conserving energy. The divers also said they were surprisingly strong when they found them so meditation likely played a role. although in this particular case it wasn't necessary to simply "survive"
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:44 am

Interesting religious and mythological background to the cave itself -
For the past two weeks, a global audience has been transfixed by the drama of 12 boys and their coach trapped within Tham Luang Nang Non, a cave deep underneath the mountains that form the Thai-Burmese border.

The name of the cave means literally "the cave of the reclining lady", named after a princess who, as the legend goes, committed suicide after she was forbidden to be with her commoner love. Her body became the mountains, and her genitals, the cave. She is now the ruler — the "jao mae" — of both.

I first visited Nang Non Cave in the rainy season of 2007 along with my partner, for my book project "Ghosts of the New City".

While the current attention has focused on the treacherous flooded passages, the trapped children and their heroic rescuers, as I found, there is much more to this story.

A gateway to another world

The cave is enthralling. Its entrance is broad, like a cathedral door, and during the rainy season the humidity pours out of it like steam. It looks like the gateway to another world. In some senses, it is.

... Local chronicle and oral legend varies on the exact story of the place: Some say the cave was the home of demonic giants — "yaksha" — who were nonetheless ruled from within the cave by a noble king. Others have a noble ruler founding the kingdom of Lanna (Northern Thailand) and then retreating to the cave only to have his realm fall into disarray.

My favourite such story has a Northern Thai lord — Jao Luang Kham Daeng, the Lord of Burnished Copper — who was tricked into following a beautiful woman into the cave, where he was later devoured by the spirits within. However, in his death, according to one version, he became its ruler.

In each of these stories, the cave becomes the home of a powerful but sometimes dangerous spirit, who keeps the Northern Thai region safe, prosperous and healthy so long as the spirit and the dangerous power of the mountain is respected.

It could be inferred that Northern Thai caves, then, have little to do with Buddhism. But religion in Thailand and especially the North is, as scholars such as Pattana Kitiarsa, Erick White, Justin McDaniel and many others have pointed out, a blend of different influences: a belief in the power of particular people and places, a respect for Buddhist teachings, and a model of kingly power based on older Hindu traditions in the region.

The caves of Northern Thailand are places where these religious traditions blend: There are shrines to the Buddha, Hindu hermits and the spirit lords of the mountain, all in the same space....
:reading: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-11/t ... es/9979052

:coffee:
Kim

paul
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by paul » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:54 am

Rescued boys considering temporary ordination;
https://theconversation.com/the-rescued ... -why-99992

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 am

The cultural ignorance is so thick here, its neither religious of mythological, its just beyond the scope of most normal peoples perception and cultural conditions.

Cave, guha cavity of the heart chitta hrid~center



Yaksha (Sanskrit यक्ष yakṣa, Odia-ଯକ୍ଷ, Pali yakkha) is the name of a broad class of nature-spirits, usually benevolent, who are caretakers of the natural treasures hidden in the earth and tree roots. They appear in Hindu, Jain and Buddhist texts. The feminine form of the word is yakṣī or Yakshini (yakṣiṇī) they are not demons or malefic spirits, they are protectors of dharma

earth bhumi or Prithvi Mata (Sanskrit: पृथ्वी, pṛthvī, also pṛthivī) divine mother earth is the outer element one of the five mahabhutas 5 great elements, more subtle than this is apa water, mind is becoming refined beyond gross attachments, when one see Prithvi as divine manifestation of earth as living conscious organism. apas is cleansing stage or purity of attachment to Prithvi with desire to exploit, agni~fire, tapas mental elevation and purification and illumination of dharma. Vayu~ wind universal prana, akasha~ realization of all pervasive conscious space akash invisible to ordinary perception. All expansions of Brahman and non different to Brahman.

Its truly a inspiring story and great way that the human family came together to help and support them, now its time for them to leave and just let them get on with in their own way. But now its time for everyone to go home and leave them be and not destroy their purity and innocence.

what irks me is the constant analysis thats coming from the west, saying that the experience could psychological damage them. I can imagine some freak who doesnt know their own nature doing personality tests.

Rural people in Asia are usually very tough minded and respond emotionally to things differently than the west who always seem to want to categorize and put everything into a box, to some how fit their image of reality, as if somehow their way of life needs to be confirmed by outsiders.

I wish they would just leave them alone and let them get back to their previous life and and let them deal with it in their own way,But sadly that wont happen, next will be a big wave of neurotic people asking whats life all about and can they help them with their mental issues. Maybe soon to be turned into a major tourist centre.


Somethings maybe a myth to empirical viewers but there is much more deeper meaning behind their cultures, it doesnt need your boxes.

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:06 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 am
The cultural ignorance is so thick here, its neither religious of mythological, its just beyond the scope of most normal peoples perception and cultural conditions.
Could you say whose cultural ignorance you are referring to? In the thread above, we have people talking about the boys meditating, the boys considering ordination, and some local Thai folklore. None of that sounds particularly ignorant.
Rural people in Asia are usually very tough minded and respond emotionally to things differently than the west who always seem to want to categorize and put everything into a box, to some how fit their image of reality, as if somehow their way of life needs to be confirmed by outsiders.

I wish they would just leave them alone and let them get back to their previous life and and let them deal with it in their own way,But sadly that wont happen, next will be a big wave of neurotic people asking whats life all about and can they help them with their mental issues.
Yes, let's hope that nobody gets offended by Western categorisations and the need for confirmation. After all, what did Westerners ever do for those boys? Apart from discovering them, and the invention of compressed oxygen, and nylon rope, and face masks, and diesel pumps...

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:46 am

The comments posted quoted by Kim Ohara
Interesting religious and mythological background to the cave itself
There is no religion and mythology, again its a foreign culture trying to box another culture into its own image and ideas and terminology. Just another example of cultural and spirtual ignorance.
The name of the cave means literally "the cave of the reclining lady", named after a princess who, as the legend goes, committed suicide after she was forbidden to be with her commoner love. Her body became the mountains, and her genitals, the cave. She is now the ruler — the "jao mae" — of both.
reclining lady would be a form or sri of devi or a feminine bodhisattva, first stage of prajna in immaterial realms.
I first visited Nang Non Cave in the rainy season of 2007 along with my partner, for my book project "Ghosts of the New City".

Ghosts ? anything subtle in the Old Western Christian monopoly would be seen as ghosts or spooky.

Local chronicle and oral legend varies on the exact story of the place: Some say the cave was the home of demonic giants — "yaksha"
Again this is superimposition and manipulation of language, they did it with most the traditions in India. They did it with the ancient druids too

The druids would talk about the underworlds or under the earth and the archaeologist took out there spade and shovels and starting searching for the heavens inside the physical earth and hollow regions. :thinking:

Same thing, same technique that happens all over the ancient world from monotheists, they do it South American Cultures, African cultures, Indian Cultures and almost everywhere they went spreading their virus

Modern day result of that culture back in the lands where it predominant is that it produces neurotic seekers and intellectual conceptualization and religious fanatics.
In each of these stories, the cave becomes the home of a powerful but sometimes dangerous spirit, who keeps the Northern Thai region safe, prosperous and healthy so long as the spirit and the dangerous power of the mountain is respected.
Not dangerous spirits, they about as dangerous as Dharma Guardians, the are all auspicious but there is respect and reverence to not take these things lightly. But lets hope they honour and respect things properly.

ABC news Inside the dangerous cave of spirits

Just imagine how that goes down in brainwashed America society full of conservative self moralists liberals who by birth deem themselves as somehow superior to everyone. And these poor backward rural uneducated people full of myths and superstitions

So maybe they need to send people over their and educate them to their standards and end up as neurotic as them. Then comes materialism, pharmaceuticals and the rest. I have seen how these work first hand and how they grow and how they destroy everything good about these old cultures.

Its not needed, but the door is wide open now.

Lets come back and 15 years and re assess but if history is right they will commercialize and degrade a simple and profound culture and get them hooked deeper into materialism.
The name of the cave means literally "the cave of the reclining lady", named after a princess who, as the legend goes, committed suicide after she was forbidden to be with her commoner love. Her body became the mountains, and her genitals, the cave. She is now the ruler — the "jao mae" — of both.
This could also be translated with shiva shakti traditions as more esoteric rather than historical, but as I dont know the the history exactly from locals, but it seems to have the same smell.

:anjali:

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mikenz66
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 am

Hi markandeya,

Clearly, translating some terms into English is fraught with difficulty. However, I suspect that you are over-interpreting here:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:46 am
Ghosts ? anything subtle in the Old Western Christian monopoly would be seen as ghosts or spooky.
Ghosts is a term my Thai friends use when speaking English. Obviously it's not a perfect translation, but it's the word they would likely use in the context of stories like this one of Robert's here:
viewtopic.php?t=32181#p477605

Clearly, Robert's friends found the thought of the peta's disconcerting, similar to the connotations that the English word "ghosts" carries.

:heart:
Mike

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 am

Hi Mike

I am not over interpreting I am giving correct translations as learned from native locals with their own meanings without any external translations or influence which do not correspond to foreign concepts.

with metta

:anjali:

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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:58 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 am
Hi Mike

I am not over interpreting I am giving correct translations as learned from native locals with their own meanings without any external translations or influence which do not correspond to foreign concepts.

with metta

:anjali:
So your Thai friends don't use words like "ghosts"?

:heart:
Mike

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Sam Vara
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:44 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:46 am
a foreign culture trying to box another culture into its own image and ideas and terminology. Just another example of cultural and spirtual ignorance....
Same thing, same technique that happens all over the ancient world from monotheists, they do it South American Cultures, African cultures, Indian Cultures and almost everywhere they went spreading their virus...
Modern day result of that culture back in the lands where it predominant is that it produces neurotic seekers and intellectual conceptualization and religious fanatics....
Just imagine how that goes down in brainwashed America society full of conservative self moralists liberals who by birth deem themselves as somehow superior to everyone. And these poor backward rural uneducated people full of myths and superstitions...
So maybe they need to send people over their and educate them to their standards and end up as neurotic as them. Then comes materialism, pharmaceuticals and the rest. I have seen how these work first hand and how they grow and how they destroy everything good about these old cultures.
I get the idea that you are attacking the blundering ignorant materialist imperialism of "The West" as it appropriates or otherwise fails to appreciate the spirituality of other cultures.

Just to soften this contrast a bit, I'd like to make two points. First, this interpretation relies upon the idea of two monolithic cultures, whereas (due to the internet and migration) the edges are far more blurred. I've known a couple of fearsome Thai conservative moralists, and conversely there are many respectful, sane and sensitive Westerners (yes, even Americans!) Lots of my friends happily inhabit both cultures - last night I was speaking to a Sri Lankan friend who is undertaking post-doctoral research in a subject which requires great facility in intellectual conceptualisation, yet is devoted to the Buddha. Not many people see such a divide as you appear to see.

Second, what about looking for the positives, wherever they come from? Pharmaceuticals might just be a good thing in some respects. Apparently, they played a part (along with the Westerners and the western-invented technology) in freeing the boys alive. What's not to like?

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:13 pm

Hi Mike

Mike whats your problem, I wasn't talking about Thai Friends I said to get a clearer picture I would need to speak to the locals, where did I actually mention Thai friends i was talking about putting false ideas, concepts and words into peoples minds, cultures and language structure when they may not use exactly the same ideas. I am sure in Thailand they have some equivalents, but it may not have the exact same equivalent as whats normally translated.

Its like in Sanskrit the word Bhuta means subtle being or subtle elements and the word was translated as Ghosts or malefic spirits, subtle elements have a dual nature but when understood correctly within the whole context there is no duality, just two sides of the same reality that work together. Afew years ago I posted a picture on Facebook on mahakala as a bodhisattva form of shiva ( which it is) and I got a message that from a Christian that I was promoting devil worship, (just because he looks fierce) and sent me loads of stuff about Shiva being the destroyer of the world, and i must repent and take up Jesus as savior of the world, or I will go to hell and all that rubbish, as funny as it is its going, thanks God, I was never raised in Christian upbringing, one of the blessings in my life, saves me from so much truble and so much easier to understand dharma traditions as they are not as they are translated . Rudra means destroyer but its an amsa or expansion of shiva meaning he destroys all the negativity in the lokas of subtle abodes of consciousness, shiva is always auspicious.

There are countless examples of this. How many people were brought up thinking voodoo in Africa was some type of witchcraft and backward superstition and based on satanic and evil forms of ignorant uneducated backward tribal practices, when nothing could be further from the truth and how Africans turned their backs on their own cultures due to pressure fear and force. I spent 4 months in East Africa staying and living with locals and when you get to know what they mean how things are interpreted its just bizarre how things are translated. I give many examples as I am well traveled and when I travel I have the integrity to learn from the locals how they present it themselves rather than translate it myself then tell them whats it all about, others should try it, it expands the mind a bit. Many cant even understand simple cultural translations so i have no idea how they can adjust their minds to understand something more non dual and beyond conditional perceptions. Now African people are waking up and realizing they were tricked, like most others cultures.

Anything that was a bit odd and different from normal Christian conception wqs deemed a satanic, there are even people in America that say that if you do hatha Yoga just the simple exercise to promote health, well being and mental balance is seen as the devils work, and they say how others have supertions and myths :thinking:

Tell a lie for long enough.... Force ideas for long enough under certain conditions, change power and authority structures to promote foreign ideas and hey presto, the trick continues.


Even today i was reading from a friend in India how a local Indian person who converted to Christianity which is causing absolute chaos havoc and vision in South Indian is promoting false information on Adi Shankaras history, purposely causing stirs and tensions. These things I am highly aware of due to spending the majority my adult life in India with locals away from the normal routes.

I am drawing a line in the sand, there are reasonable individuals synthesis between when people make suitable cross cultural connections, I do it myself but in a healthy way and try not to fit everything into my box of conditions to give it final justification, takes some ability of having an empty mind without preconceived ideas. It just lacks honesty and openness.

Most of my posts are spoken from direct experience, not studying books or cultures from a remote place.

A bit like what your trying to do, trying turn around to my posts into your thinking and your understanding :coffee:

"The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them."
— Thomas Merton

:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:44 am
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:46 am
a foreign culture trying to box another culture into its own image and ideas and terminology. Just another example of cultural and spirtual ignorance....
Same thing, same technique that happens all over the ancient world from monotheists, they do it South American Cultures, African cultures, Indian Cultures and almost everywhere they went spreading their virus...
Modern day result of that culture back in the lands where it predominant is that it produces neurotic seekers and intellectual conceptualization and religious fanatics....
Just imagine how that goes down in brainwashed America society full of conservative self moralists liberals who by birth deem themselves as somehow superior to everyone. And these poor backward rural uneducated people full of myths and superstitions...
So maybe they need to send people over their and educate them to their standards and end up as neurotic as them. Then comes materialism, pharmaceuticals and the rest. I have seen how these work first hand and how they grow and how they destroy everything good about these old cultures.
I get the idea that you are attacking the blundering ignorant materialist imperialism of "The West" as it appropriates or otherwise fails to appreciate the spirituality of other cultures.

Just to soften this contrast a bit, I'd like to make two points. First, this interpretation relies upon the idea of two monolithic cultures, whereas (due to the internet and migration) the edges are far more blurred. I've known a couple of fearsome Thai conservative moralists, and conversely there are many respectful, sane and sensitive Westerners (yes, even Americans!) Lots of my friends happily inhabit both cultures - last night I was speaking to a Sri Lankan friend who is undertaking post-doctoral research in a subject which requires great facility in intellectual conceptualisation, yet is devoted to the Buddha. Not many people see such a divide as you appear to see.

Second, what about looking for the positives, wherever they come from? Pharmaceuticals might just be a good thing in some respects. Apparently, they played a part (along with the Westerners and the western-invented technology) in freeing the boys alive. What's not to like?
i do see a lot of positives Sam, but they dont need to be spoken about as they dont lead to tensions, they naturally work themselves out.

I am not totally against pharmaceuticals although I dont take or have never felt the need to take as of yet and have always remained healthy I am just saying when so much interest and investments come in it also brings with it an agenda and there are plenty of examples of agandas coming from the West

As I said its a great story of human beings acting as a family, but when its all done and everyone shakes hands it time for people to go back to their respective places, its better, and if they want to stay, try and learn something from them in their own way.

Am I am skeptic, you bet, why because I have first hand experience how things develop and how they turn out. I cant deny translations and other things but direct experience that I have seen and felt and experienced with my own eyes.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:41 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 pm

i do see a lot of positives Sam, but they dont need to be spoken about as they dont lead to tensions, they naturally work themselves out.

I am not totally against pharmaceuticals although I dont take or have never felt the need to take as of yet and have always remained healthy I am just saying when so much interest and investments come in it also brings with it an agenda and there are plenty of examples of agandas coming from the West

As I said its a great story of human beings acting as a family, but when its all done and everyone shakes hands it time for people to go back to their respective places, its better, and if they want to stay, try and learn something from them in their own way.

Am I am skeptic, you bet, why because I have first hand experience how things develop and how they turn out. I cant deny translations and other things but direct experience that I have seen and felt and experienced with my own eyes.
Agreed, markandeya. Let's all hope that with a bit of sensitivity and wisdom, people can refrain from interfering and let everything turn out for the best.

:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: Boys in cave: the meditation perspective

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:47 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:41 pm
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 pm

i do see a lot of positives Sam, but they dont need to be spoken about as they dont lead to tensions, they naturally work themselves out.

I am not totally against pharmaceuticals although I dont take or have never felt the need to take as of yet and have always remained healthy I am just saying when so much interest and investments come in it also brings with it an agenda and there are plenty of examples of agandas coming from the West

As I said its a great story of human beings acting as a family, but when its all done and everyone shakes hands it time for people to go back to their respective places, its better, and if they want to stay, try and learn something from them in their own way.

Am I am skeptic, you bet, why because I have first hand experience how things develop and how they turn out. I cant deny translations and other things but direct experience that I have seen and felt and experienced with my own eyes.
Agreed, markandeya. Let's all hope that with a bit of sensitivity and wisdom, people can refrain from interfering and let everything turn out for the best.

:anjali:
Lets hope so , but the door is wide open now and the things that raised alarms bells with me was first saying that they would be psychologically scarred and needing evaluation, when they would heal much better by being around their families and things they naturally have trusted their whole life and the film industry capitalizing on it. it makes me sad more than annoyed.


I lived in village in the Philippines for 6 years, and walked around villages and rural areas in India and rural people are bright happy, simple and very durable, these mind quacks need to spend more time with them if anything to sort out their mental issues not the other way around.

I am skeptic and I dont trust many things

:anjali:

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