budo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:24 pm
Good post cjmacie.
Have you read the book "Way of Buddhist Meditation" by Kheminda Thera, who is a friend of Soma Thera and helped translate the latest edition of Vimuttimaga?
He says that satipathana/mahasatipathana actually starts
after one has attained jhana and he references and quotes the lines for it in the sutta.
It also seems like the Vimuttimaga declares the same thing that jhanas are necessary. From my understanding the vimuttimaga was written by an Arahant whereas the Vissudhimagga was written by a scholar. The vimuttimagga uses the Young Cow simile to describe how one who does not attain jhanas can not destroy lust, etc..
On page 79 of the Vimuttimagga, it says that access-concentration is not strong enough, it is unable to hold onto an object sufficiently and wanders like a child, and is therefore 'not accomplished', and that fixed meditation (aka jhana) is accomplished.
My own personal view is that this isn't really a huge deal as people make it out to be, you can cover all bases, I do so by starting my meditation and continuing in this sequence:
brahma-viharas/metta -> concentration (see how concentrated I can get until I feel like I'm going to burn out/run out of steam) -> vipassana/panna (khanikha samadhi + contemplations)
On good days I'll get to jhana, on bad days I'll barely make it to access concentration, regardless I'll move onto vipassana.
In this way I am always training myself in the threefold trainings and covering all bases. If I'm not able to meditate at all then I'll resort to recollections/sutta/book reading.
Mundane jhanas are certainly not necessary for the attainment of path and fruition, as i remember according to commentary there are 5 types of Arahants liberated by wisdom, those who attain liberation after each of the four jhanas and the dry-insight practitioner.
"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
9. “And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states [436] and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
10–12. “Again, with the stilling of applied and sustained thought, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the second jhāna … Again, with the fading away as well of rapture, a bhikkhu … enters upon and abides in the third jhāna … Again, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain … a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.
“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent … as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element … This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
13. “Again, with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space.
“Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent … as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element … This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
14. “Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite consciousness.
“Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent … as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element … This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
15. “Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness.
“Whatever exists therein of feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, [437] he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.”
16. “Venerable sir, if this is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters, then how is it that some bhikkhus here [are said to] gain deliverance of mind and some [are said to] gain deliverance by wisdom?”
“The difference here, Ānanda, is in their faculties, I say.”
That is what the Blessed One said. The venerable Ānanda was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One’s words.
it would make no sense for Ananda to ask the Blessed One about the case of those delivered by wisdom as all the Jhana to Deathless variants have been covered, so the natural interpretation is that there are exceptions to the Jhana to Deathless variant and that there are those who realize Deathless without the Jhana and relying on the development of Path destroy the Fetters without Jhana.