How to claim, when to claim!

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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auto
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How to claim, when to claim!

Post by auto » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:56 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.

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budo
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by budo » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:18 pm

Just be as honest as you can be with yourself and others. If you read Bhikkhu Analayo's new book "A meditator's life of the Buddha" he talks about how when the Buddha attained enlightenment and was contemplating teaching others and Brahma told him to go teach, an ascetic saw the Buddha, went up to him and commented on how good he looked, then the Buddha told him that he is the supreme awakened one which scared the guy off, lol.

I'm not a Buddha nor a teacher, so I can't imagine how much patience you would need to deal with people who don't know better and are scared (rightfully so as there are tons of scam artists out there). In general for me it seems exhausting, I don't even know how the mods on the forum have the energy to babysit, all the respect to them. I'd rather just meditate in seclusion instead. I guess being a samma sam-Buddha requires a degree of extroversion.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:27 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:56 am
How to claim, when to claim!
Why would you claim at all? If you get awakened you'll have no ego. If you have no ego you don't need to tell others you're awakened. Ego ego EGO.

dharmacorps
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:42 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:27 pm
Why would you claim at all? If you get awakened you'll have no ego. If you have no ego you don't need to tell others you're awakened. Ego ego EGO.
Exactly!! :anjali:

paul
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by paul » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:57 am

The critical point of this teaching from MN 14 from a practice point of view is the replacing of sensuality with a pleasure apart from it:

“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14

“AN 7:63, in its simile of the frontier fortress, compares the various levels of jhana to food for the soldiers of right effort and for the gatekeeper of right mindfulness. Only if the mind can experience a pleasure and rapture not of the flesh—in other words, not connected with sensuality—will it have the nourishment it needs to keep itself protected.”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro

auto
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by auto » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:32 pm

if to search synonyms what sensuality is then:

Sensuality is the instinct what arises and causes stress. Like a rut, sensuality arises and body seeks liberation from it, it knows instinctually what to do.
"Mahanama, that very mental quality[2] is what is unabandoned within you so that there are times when the mental quality of greed... the mental quality of aversion... the mental quality of delusion invades your mind and remains.[3] For if that mental quality were abandoned in you, you would not live the household life and would not partake of sensuality. It's because that mental quality is not abandoned in you that you live the household life and partake of sensuality.
Anyone who can know what the other persons buttons are, can tease and arose instincts.
"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality.
Ascetism thinks he can defeat instincts by exhausting them for the future
"Whether I am walking or standing, sleeping or awake, knowledge & vision are continuously & continually established in me." He has told us, "Niganthas, there are evil actions that you have done in the past. Exhaust them with these painful austerities. When in the present you are restrained in body, restrained in speech, and restrained in mind, that is the non-doing of evil action for the future.
Also ascetism thinks,
Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."[6] We approve of that [teaching], prefer it, and are gratified by it.'

---------------
"When this was said, I asked them, 'But friends, do you know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist?'
"'No, friend.'
-
"'And do you know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them?'
"'No, friend.'
-
"'And do you know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past?'
"'No, friend.'
-
"'And do you know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted?'
"'No, friend.'
-
"'But do you know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now?'
"'No, friend.'

rightviewftw
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:00 pm

As i see it for these reasons one could claim a supramundane attainment if one has it;
- To tell a friend as Sariputta told to Moggallana. I don't want to guess exactly why he told him but i think telling to inspire others is not a problem. If one has a good friend who trusts one not to lie about these things, is himself interested in such attainment and won't get too jealous, why not.
- Out of sympathy to inform others of one's status in the case of Insulting a noble one
"Obstacle of insulting a noble one" (ariyupavadantaraya) refers to the act of insulting or degrading a noble one, with or without knowledge of his or her virtues. It damages the prospect of both elestial rebirth and path knowledge and fruition knowledge. One can remove this obstacle, however, by apologizing to the noble one for the offense.
From the Visuddhimagga:

“Revilers of Noble Ones”: being desirous of harm for Noble Ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.

Herein, it should be understood that when they say, “They have no
asceticism, they are not ascetics,” they revile them with the worst accusation;
and when they say, “They have no jhāna or liberation or path of fruition, etc.,” they revile them with denial of their special qualities. And whether done knowingly or unknowingly it is in either case reviling of Noble Ones; it is weighty kamma resembling that of immediate result, and it is an obstacle both to heaven and to the path. But it is remediable.
"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
pācittiya 8 monastic rule
Not to announce to a layman a realisation that has been achieved. If a bhikkhu announces to a layman or to a sāmaṇera, a realisation partaking with a jhāna nature or with a stage of ariyā, and this realisation has genuinely been achieved, he commits a pācittiya.

On the other hand, a bhikkhu who makes such a declaration, while knowing it to be false, commits the pārājika 4. A bhikkhu must avoid making his attainments known, even to other bhikkhus. Apart from four exceptions when they can do so, ariyās never unveil their realisations:

Under a violent threat.
Undergoing an oppressive and virulent lack of respect.
A t the time of passing away.
To reveal it to his preceptor or to a fellow bhikkhu who does a similar practice.
This is not meant to be an exhaustive list but i think in general there are some problems with it but there is certainly an upside as well. It is a delicate matter all in all, there are additional concerns for Bhikkhus and inducing an Ariyapavadantaraya is a considerable downside in case of announcing it in front of strangers.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

auto
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by auto » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:35 pm

Perhaps discipleship and jhana attainments doesn't satisfy heart's desire and also doesn't go through a hand so they are not really attainments. In short it isn't tangible, you can't give and take.

While ascetic doesn't accept offered food what is tangible, while the mental imprint or quality has led to the tangible fruit already, so if to reject offering it doesn't change the mental quality into skillful what would then not led to evil destinies after breaking up the body.

So someone claims jhana attainment, it is too soon to utter it through a mouth or write about it, it has more processes to undergo.

TRobinson465
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:12 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:27 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:56 am
How to claim, when to claim!
Why would you claim at all? If you get awakened you'll have no ego. If you have no ego you don't need to tell others you're awakened. Ego ego EGO.
Well the Buddha had to claim. If not, the world would never know.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:15 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:00 pm
“Revilers of Noble Ones”: being desirous of harm for Noble Ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.

Herein, it should be understood that when they say, “They have no
asceticism, they are not ascetics,” they revile them with the worst accusation;
and when they say, “They have no jhāna or liberation or path of fruition, etc.,” they revile them with denial of their special qualities. And whether done knowingly or unknowingly it is in either case reviling of Noble Ones; it is weighty kamma resembling that of immediate result, and it is an obstacle both to heaven and to the path. But it is remediable.


Hi, is there a link to this passage you can give me? or if not, can you let me know where i can find it. (if its in print, like the book and page number or something). Thanks in advance :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Nicolas
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by Nicolas » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:49 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:15 am
[...]
It's in the Visuddhimagga, chapter 13, paragraphs 82 & 83.
On this PDF document, it's on pages 417 & 418 (printed page numbers), or pages 475 & 476 (actual page numbers of the PDF document).

TRobinson465
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Re: How to claim, when to claim!

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:21 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:49 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:15 am
[...]
It's in the Visuddhimagga, chapter 13, paragraphs 82 & 83.
On this PDF document, it's on pages 417 & 418 (printed page numbers), or pages 475 & 476 (actual page numbers of the PDF document).
Awesome! Thanks! :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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