Thoughts and Suffering

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 2:47 pm
Dinsdale wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
...the irritation is through the mind-door which arises after the sensedoor...
Basically we worldlings are too deluded to really understand that " sticks and stones may break my bones, but barking can never hurt me"
I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by Sam Vara »

Dinsdale wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

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Sam Vara wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 am
Dinsdale wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.
That makes sense, but now I'm wondering about the distinction between physical and mental vedana. For example, isn't the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta unpleasant ( physical ) vedana?

"And which are the two feelings? Physical & mental. These are the two feelings.

"And which are the three feelings? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.

"And which are the six feelings? A feeling born of eye-contact, a feeling born of ear-contact... nose-contact... tongue-contact... body-contact... intellect-contact. These are the six feelings."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Sam Vara
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

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Dinsdale wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:32 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 am
Dinsdale wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 8:16 am I was thinking of DO, where craving ( and by implication, aversion ) arise in dependence upon feeling, and feeling arises in dependence upon contact via one of the sense-bases ( including mind ). So here there is aversion arising in dependence upon a mildly unpleasant feeling arising "at" the mind-base?
That sounds right to me. If you heard the same sound coming from a rescue dog while you were buried in an avalanche or somesuch, the experience would be different. The feeling arising at the mind-base would be pleasant, and probably give rise to the strongest possible craving.
That makes sense, but now I'm wondering about the distinction between physical and mental vedana. For example, isn't the first arrow in the Arrow Sutta unpleasant ( physical ) vedana?
It is, but note robertk's point above about thoughts contributing most to suffering,
apart from moments of intense pain at the body door. The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Yappy dogs are in this vital respect different from arrows, double-handled saws, etc. The latter would appear to be far more intractable than the former.
pegembara
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by pegembara »

In my own practice, I have found that thoughts seem to contribute the most to suffering than any of the other five sense objects. Would this be a fair statement?


Akase padam natthi, samano natthi bahire,
Papancabhirata paja, nippapanca tathagata.

There are no footprints in the sky;
You won’t find the sage out there.
The world delights in conceptual proliferation (papanca).
Buddhas delight in the ending of that (nippapanca).
Tangled in Thought

When concepts and thoughts are entertained without wisdom, the world becomes fragmented and filled with complexity. The Buddha called this tendency papanca, or “conceptual proliferation.” A simple thought like “me” gives rise to a “you.” A “this” necessitates a “that.” As conditions change, the notion of time is created. The actual flow of sense experience is ever-changing and ungraspable, but the nature of language imparts apparent solidity and “thingness” to the world. When thought and concept are thus conjoined with ignorance, it leads to grasping, proliferation, increasing complexity, and the suffering of endless “birth and death.”

The ending of papanca—nippapanca—reveals the true, undivided nature of the reality we inhabit. When the proliferating tendency of the mind ceases, even for a moment, the everpeaceful radiant heart is recognized. Papanca means “to spread out,” and the word conveys the dynamic web of thoughts and concepts that create our sense of reality. Rather than illuminating reality, papanca actually eclipses the direct seeing of what is really true. Papanca endlessly separates, and nippapanca means the cessation of that. It is a profound practice, to see through thinking and its activity of concretizing the self and the world.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/tangled-thought/
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robertk
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

Post by robertk »

Dinsdale wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 8:26 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am The other sense doors have only neutral feeling.
Really? Why then do I get irritated with the yappy dog barking next door?
another aspect: although the feeling that arises at the ear door when sound is contacted ( vedana associated with sota vinnana) is always neutral, it ( the hearing consciousness) is still classified as vipaka (result) due to either kusala or akusala kamma. the hearing of a barking dog would be due to akusala kamma from the past - and this is inherently undesirable..

one more: sound is a thorn to concentration - it interrupts the flow of thoughts for example.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Thoughts and Suffering

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robertk wrote: Fri May 25, 2018 2:00 am one more: sound is a thorn to concentration - it interrupts the flow of thoughts for example.
I think it depends how intrusive the sound is, though I don't have a problem at all with natural sounds like waves breaking, or wind in the trees. With the yappy dog next door, my irritation is mostly with the neighbours for not doing anything about it. The dog is quite neurotic, they tried some "doggy counselling" but they didn't see it through. :popcorn:

I can usually notice my reactions to various stimuli, but it sometime takes a while to work out what the root causes are.
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