Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

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Dhammarakkhito
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Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 12:37 am

commentary strikes again
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 14, 2018 1:38 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:37 am
commentary strikes again
Whats wrong with commentary if it does not contradict the Sutta?

It is incredible how you in example just call Abhidhamma a "probable fake" when it is one of the 3 Pitakas and don't even care to point out a single contradiction, same goes for other commentary.

You may think that a high and mighty disdain for anything other than Sutta demonstrates orthodoxy but in reality it demonstrates little else than ignorance and recklessness not to mention going against the advice outlined in the Sutta for the use of commentary. Kind of peculiar that you even bother to read the teachings of Ven. Nyanananda...

Recklessness because if someone after the passing of the Tathagata was to become Ariya and put some Dhamma to writing, calling it a fake is not very smart... Therefore disregarding Commentary without a very good reason always runs the risk of reviling the Dhamma and the author.

Frankly a wholesale dismissal of a Pitaka or the commentary tradition is a sure sign of stupidity.
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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 4:23 am

theres a very large thread about abhidhamma authenticity
establishing an esoteric doctrine is my main disagreement, and it is a later text and it should be held up for scrutiny
focusing on the nostrils is not focusing on in and out breathing and it's not mindfulness to the front
anything but the suttas deserves scrutiny especially when it is a later addition.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 14, 2018 4:39 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:23 am
focusing on the nostrils is not focusing on in and out breathing and it's not mindfulness to the front
Afaik nobody says merely "focus on the nostrils" what is said is to observe the in and out breaths at the nostrils or observing the sensantions associated with the in and out breaths... which very much is focusing on the in and out breaths and establishing mindfulness.

As for scrutinizing the Abhidhamma and the Commentary, go ahead and scrutinize every syllable, when you find a contradiction you can dismiss it but you have not actually pointed out any contradictions so far. In general the three pitakas complement eachother quite well if you ask me.

There is also a difference between scrutiny and complete disregard as a fake, as i remember you said something like "i don't care for Abhidhamma, it is probably a fake and i probably will never bother reading it for that reason" and the "commentary strikes again" comment is not really scrutiny, if you are scrutinizing in this way then you are doing it wrong. It is actually quite distasteful and disrespectful.

As for the method of practicing Satipatthana by focusing at the nostril area, afaik Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw originally practiced like this but changed it to abdomen so it would not be confused with Samatha and Ven. Nyananada practiced in a similar way as well.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon May 14, 2018 5:05 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 5:10 am

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
there, done

materialism, realism, abhidhamma https://pathpress.wordpress.com/2012/04 ... sophy-2-2/
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 14, 2018 5:18 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:10 am
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
there, done
done what exactly? Do you realize that there is more to Satipatthana training than observing the sensations at the nostrils? Like noting postures and touching points, mindfulness with and without noting, Dhammanupassana and etc.. Are you even familiar with what it is you are criticizing? Have you actually studied these methods? It is becoming obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
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Re: Focusing on the nostrils

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 5:47 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:10 am
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body [sabba kaya].'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Imo, this is a mistranslation. :P
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies

MN 118
Sabba = all

Kevala = whole

Sabba =/= entire =/= whole

Kaya = plural :?:
:alien:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:37 am
commentary strikes again
Sutta strikes again: :meditate:
Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single.

MN 19

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Re: Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 6:16 am

lol at this being the opening post. rightview, i'm not convinced that you will be satisfied with an answer that poses disagreement with you, i've stated my criticism citing the anapanasati sutta
if you want to focus on a particular part of the body that is not the whole body, this contradiction is quite plain

sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī ti sikkhati
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... ttam-2.htm
entire-body-toward-feeling to-this-a-student-master practices
that's my amateur translation, but its clear that sabbakāya refers to some entire body, be it a form body or a mind body or the body of aggregates
all of the kāya whatever that is
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

Post by rightviewftw » Mon May 14, 2018 7:10 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:16 am
lol at this being the opening post. rightview, i'm not convinced that you will be satisfied with an answer that poses disagreement with you, i've stated my criticism citing the anapanasati sutta
if you want to focus on a particular part of the body that is not the whole body, this contradiction is quite plain
As i said there is more to the method than merely focusing on one part of the body and therefore no contradiction, which you would know had you actually been familiar with the variations of the Mahasi method which you seem to criticize or is it the Anapana Dipani that you have a problem with...

As for not being satisfied with your answers, this is thread is hardly a discussion of the methods but rather a criticism of you writing comments ala "commentary strikes again"
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Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
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Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
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Re: Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 8:23 am

ok
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Musings about Focusing on the nostrils

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 1:15 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:16 am
sabbakāya refers to some entire body, be it a form body or a mind body or the body of aggregates
all of the kāya whatever that is
I am very very happy to find the following information (while I was doing some Pali research). I have always held this Paṭisambhidāmagga view, which is contrary to the establishment Visuddhimagga view and also contrary to the (agreeable) view of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. What this Paṭisambhidāmagga view means is experiencing the cause & effect relationship of how the state of the mind interrelates with the state of the breathing & the body. The Buddhadasa view is not literally correct because, if it was correct, the Pali would be: "kāya-sankhara-paṭisaṃvedī".

Paṭisambhidāmagga :) vs Visuddhimagga :|
Pṭs: Kāyo ti dve kāyā -nāmakāyo ca rūpakāyo ca; body means the two bodies -the mind-body and the physical body. Pṭs then explains mind as feelings, perceptions, contact, application of mind, and mental processes; and body as the four great elements, matter that is derived from them, breathing, the sign (nimitta), and whatever bodily processes there are. It would seem from this that Pṭs. does not agree that kāya here should mean only the whole body of breath (sakala assāsakāya), which is how it is taken in Vism.

http://religiondocbox.com/Buddhism/6872 ... thing.html
Tradition ascribes the Patisambhidamagga to the Buddha's great disciple, Sariputta. The text was dated by A.K. Warder to approximately 3rd century BCE. According to German tradition of Indology this text was likely composed around the 2nd century CE
The Visuddhimagga (Pali; English: The Path of Purification), is the 'great treatise' on Theravada Buddhist doctrine written by Buddhaghosa approximately in the 5th Century in Sri Lanka

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