Sati

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Sati

Post by mikenz66 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:55 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:32 am
Please note: the word "sati" ("mindfulness") does not mean "watching".
Of course, it's hard to capture the meaning of sati with a single English word, but I note that anapana means "in and out breathing".

:meditate:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: Looking for resources on particularly Islamic Meditation techniques

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 05, 2018 2:46 am

grigoris wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 12:47 pm
Did you read the Sutta I linked too?
Sure, I have read the sutta. The sutta says:
There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; always mindful he breathes out.
Above, mindfulness is practised before & separate to knowing of breathing. Mindfulness & knowing breathing are two separate things.

The sutta continues:
the monk remains... mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world
Above, the role of mindfulness is to keep the mind free from greed & distress. The sutta never ever refers to mindfulness (sati) of breathing. The words used in the sutta that refer to knowing breathing are pajānāti, paṭisaṃvedī & ānupassī.

The sutta continues:
a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment (vossagga).
Above, for mindfulness to have the right quality, it must mature in giving up or letting go (vossagga). It appears to try to following the breathing is certainly not an act of letting go; but, instead, an act of grasping.

In short, I have not read any place in the sutta where the Buddha directly instructs to follow breathing. The sutta only refers to the knowing of breathing when mindfulness (letting go of craving) is established. For example, the translation of the monk Thanissaro is clearly wrong, when it says:
kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati

the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself
The words viharati & ānupassī do not appear to mean "remains focused". Anupassī means to observe & viharati means to dwell or abide:
at that time they’re meditating [abiding]... observing an aspect of the body

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato


anupassin viewing, observing, realising
In summary, the sutta directly appears to say the role of mindfulness is: "putting aside greed & distress" and a result or by-product of mindfulness putting aside greed & distress is the knowing (pajānāti), experiencing (paṭisaṃvedī) & seeing (ānupassī) of breathing.

As Ajahn Brahm wrote:
Meditation is the way of letting go... To know where your effort should be directed in meditation, you must have a clear understanding of the goal. The goal of this meditation is beautiful silence,stillness,and clarity of mind.If you can understand that goal,then the place to apply your effort and the means to achieve the goal become much clearer. The effort is directed to letting go, to developing a mind that inclines to abandoning. One of the many simple but profound statements of the Buddha is that “a meditator who makes letting go the main object easily achieves samadhi,” that is,attentive stillness, the goal of meditation (SN 48.10)... So stop giving orders, let go, and enjoy the ride. Let the breath do the breathing and simply watch.

https://www.dhammaloka.org.au/files/pdf ... ers1-4.pdf
These videos are useful for beginners who don't know what mindfulness means:




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Grigoris
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Re: Looking for resources on particularly Islamic Meditation techniques

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:46 am
Above, mindfulness is practised before & separate to knowing of breathing. Mindfulness & knowing breathing are two separate things.
So according to you, the object of mindfulness and (the mental action of) mindfulness are two seperate things. That one can be aware of breathing without awareness of breathing. That there can be mindfulness without an object of mindfulness. Good luck with that one. You are going to need it.

In Mahamudra (which you will flippantly fob off as Hindu practice), for example, one develops an all-encompassing awareness. But what that means in reality is that you are aware of everything, rather than one specific thing and you do not grasp or reject "individual" phenomena as they appear. So essentially there is still an object.

As for the videos... You quite obviously overlooked this statement of mine on page one.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Sati

Post by SarathW » Sat May 05, 2018 7:25 am

Of course, it's hard to capture the meaning of sati with a single English word
To me Sati means Satipathana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sati

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 05, 2018 8:36 am

collectedness
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Dinsdale
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Re: Sati

Post by Dinsdale » Sat May 05, 2018 8:41 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 7:25 am
To me Sati means Satipathana.
And to me. I understand satipatthana as comprising the first two factors of enlightenment, ie sati and dhamma vicaya.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Looking for resources on particularly Islamic Meditation techniques

Post by Dinsdale » Sat May 05, 2018 8:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 2:46 am
The sutta continues:
the monk remains... mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world
Above, the role of mindfulness is to keep the mind free from greed & distress.
I think the "putting aside" is more to do with Right Effort.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Looking for resources on particularly Islamic Meditation techniques

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 15, 2018 4:05 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 8:50 am
I think the "putting aside" is more to do with Right Effort.
I think it would require both effort & mindfulness. I think the mind must remember to put it aside (rather than be forgetful). Its like when your mother or wife tells you: "remember to put out the garbage". Putting out the garbage requires both mindfulness & effort. As quoted:
One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. MN 117
:alien:
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
So according to you, the object of mindfulness and (the mental action of) mindfulness are two seperate things.
Obviously. How can a physical thing such as the breath or body be the same as a mental thing such as mindfulness? :? It sounds like you are teaching Monism (Greek: μόνος) such as the old Vedic or new Hindu Brahman teachings or the Christian teaching "we are one body in Christ". :|
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
That one can be aware of breathing without awareness of breathing.
Mindfulness does not appear to mean "awareness" ("consciousness"). It appears to mean "remembering"; "recollecting"; or "bringing to mind". I posted the videos for beginner practitioners.
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
That there can be mindfulness without an object of mindfulness. Good luck with that one. You are going to need it.
The above comment appears to believe "mindfulness" means "consciousness of an object". This idea appears unrelated to Buddhism. The following stock text about "consciousness" ("vinnana") does not appear to be about "mindfulness" ("sati"):
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact.

Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...

Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...

Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...

Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...

Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact

MN 18
:candle:
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
In Mahamudra (which you will flippantly fob off as Hindu practice), for example, one develops an all-encompassing awareness.
To avoid serious confusion, the above is probably better written as follows:
In Mahamudra (which you will flippantly fob off as Hindu practice), for example, one develops an all-encompassing consciousness.
:roll:
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
But what that means in reality is that you are aware of everything, rather than one specific thing... So essentially there is still an object.
Maybe. But the above flippantly fob is unrelated to the Pali term "sati" ("mindfulness"). "Mindfulness" is not the "consciousness" that operates via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue body & mind. Consciousness is "vinnana". Mindfulness is "sati". An example of mindfulness is when you are a Buddhist teacher, you remember you are not allowed to have sex with your vulnerable & impressionable students; let alone with any student.
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
...you do not grasp or reject "individual" phenomena as they appear.
When conscious of an object, the mind can grasp the object or can choose to not grasp the object. The decision to not grasp the object requires "mindfulness", namely, remembering & not forgetting to apply the Dhamma teachings that say grasping is suffering. But consciousness or "awareness" itself is not inherently related to mindfulness. When the mind is aware of or is conscious of or observes a sexy women with lust this is not Buddhist mindfulness because Buddhist mindfulness is to observe objects without lust. For example, the flippantly fob awareness in these photos is not Buddhist mindfulness because the role of mindfulness, according to the teachings, is to keep the mind free from craving:

Image Image Image
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:12 am
As for the videos... You quite obviously overlooked this statement of mine on page one.
Based on the track record of your posts, I doubt anything you write would conform to my understanding of the Pali suttas that are the reported teachings of the Buddha. :smile: The Buddha unambiguously taught how to meditate for Noble Stream-Entry as follows:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

It’s when a noble disciple, relying on letting go, gains immersion, gains unification of mind.

Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ.

SN 48.10

It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factor of mindfulness... which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go vossaggapariṇāmiṃ).

MN 118


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