mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

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rightviewftw
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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:44 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:12 am
why exclude the primary person from metta?

a person you must deal with daily

the relationship that matters most
binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:42 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:33 pm
When i practice metta i wish for all beings to attain the cessation of suffering, the highest good.
You are one of those "all beings". "May all beings" includes oneself.
:goodpost:

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:58 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:46 am
I also cant see how metta can be developed to oneself - except by using self as an example, as I said.
In one sense, the whole point of the Path is to develop metta for oneself (and then reap the results of doing so).
It's out of goodwill for oneself that one makes an effort on the Path.

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:31 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:09 pm
...
Thank you, Bhante!

:heart:
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bodom
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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by bodom » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:54 pm

This sutta might be of interest to the topic:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion King Pasenadi Kosala had gone with Queen Mallikā to the upper palace. Then he said to her, "Mallikā, is there anyone dearer to you than yourself?"

"No, great king. There is no one dearer to me than myself. And what about you, great king? Is there anyone dearer to you than yourself?"

"No, Mallikā. There is no one dearer to me than myself."

Then the king, descending from the palace, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Just now, when I had gone with Queen Mallikā to the upper palace, I said to her, 'Mallikā, is there anyone dearer to you than yourself?'

"When this was said, she said to me, 'No, great king. There is no one dearer to me than myself. And what about you, great king? Is there anyone dearer to you than yourself?'

"When this was said, I said to her, 'No, Mallikā. There is no one dearer to me than myself.'"

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:


Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:04 pm

Thanks Bodom. That's one of the variations I linked to above of SN 3.8/ Ud 5.1: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=31557&start=20#p465428

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by bodom » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:07 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:04 pm
Thanks Bodom. That's one of the variations I linked to above of SN 3.8/ Ud 5.1: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=31557&start=20#p465428

:heart:
Mike
Sorry Mike missed that somehow. I need to get a tablet as I use my phone to post the majority of the time and sometimes miss posts.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:23 pm

No problem! It's always good to repeat suttas... :reading:

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:09 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:44 pm
"In four ways, young householder, should one who is the same in happiness and sorrow be understood as a warm-hearted friend:

(i) he reveals his secrets,
(ii) he conceals one's own secrets,
(iii) in misfortune he does not forsake one,
(iv) his life even he sacrifices for one's sake (jīvitaṃpissa atthāya pariccattaṃ hoti).


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .nara.html
These are the only two sutta equivalents I could find, which seem to emphasis "dedication". This said, I think DN 31 is not about 'metta' but more about 'loyalty' of a true friend.
So the wanderers of other sects — unable to stand the veneration given to the Blessed One and the community of monks — went to Sundarī the female wanderer and, on arrival, said to her, "Sundarī, would you dare to do something for the benefit of your kinsmen?"

"What shall I do, masters? What can I not do? I have given up even my life for the benefit of my kinsmen! (Jīvitampi me pariccattaṃ ñātīnaṃ atthāyā)"

"In that case, sister, go often to Jeta's Grove."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Rahula, whatever there is of a contemplative in anyone who feels no shame at telling a deliberate lie is empty & hollow just like that.

Rahula, it's like a royal elephant: immense, pedigreed, accustomed to battles, its tusks like chariot poles. Having gone into battle, it uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail, but keeps protecting its trunk. The elephant trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has not given up its life to the king.' But when the royal elephant... having gone into battle, uses its forefeet & hindfeet, its forequarters & hindquarters, its head & ears & tusks & tail & his trunk, the trainer notices that and thinks, 'This royal elephant has given up its life to the king (pariccattaṃ kho rañño nāgassa jīvitaṃ). There is nothing it will not do.

In the same way, Rahula, when anyone feels no shame in telling a deliberate lie, there is no evil, I tell you, he will not do. Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself, 'I will not tell a deliberate lie even in jest.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Concise Pali English Dictionary
pariccatta
pp. of pariccajati
given up; abandoned; left behind; bestowed.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
pariccatta
given up abandoned, thrown out, left behind Ja.i.69, Ja.i.174, Ja.i.477; Mil.280; Pv-a.178, Pv-a.219 (= virādhita); Sdhp.374.

pp. of pariccajati; cp. BSk. parityakta in meaning “given to the poor” Avs.i.3

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:54 am

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:10 am
Hi Dhammarakkhito
How do you see metta as a meditation practice? Would you see it as a contemplation or as a generating/attuning to a feeling or as one leading to the other/a combination of the two? Or something else altogether?
:)
for me, developing the brahmavihāras attunes to a feeling, and the drawback of ill will is a contemplation.
generating the feeling of love which is warm formulates thoughts that are kind
https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/bodhi
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 am

Many of us grew up in societies where we are taught to despise ourselves, not to have love for ourselves. It's simply not a given that people by default love themselves, and so self-love cannot be taken as a basis for the practice, as such self-love simply isn't automatically there
i would say the best way to overcome that is thru not asserting and defending a self to begin with!
"So too, bhikkhus, Māra the Evil One is constantly and continually waiting close by you, thinking,

'Perhaps I will gain access to him through the eye or through the ear ... or through the mind.'

Therefore, bhikkhus, dwell guarding the doors of the sense faculties. [...]
"When, bhikkhus, you dwell guarding the doors of the sense faculties, Māra the Evil One, failing to gain access to you, will lose interest in you and depart, just as the jackal departed from the tortoise."

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... wp.htm#p1m


[Mara:]
Of what they say,
'This is mine';
and those who say,
'Mine':
If your intellect's here,
contemplative,
you can't escape
from me.

[The Buddha:]
What they speak of
isn't mine,
and I'm not one of those
who speak it.
Know this, Evil One:
you won't even see
my tracks.

Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-gone knows me" — vanished right there.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

i have looked over ven dhammanando's break-down of the pāḷi, but i honestly have no idea what he is saying. i would have to remain discerning the text with reference to other texts, in english
1. Can what the suttas call "mettā" be aptly compared to maternal love?
2. Can an affirmative answer to the above question be supported by appealing to the mother simile in the Mettasutta?

Thanissaro is giving a no answer to the second question: repudiating the common use made of the Mettasutta in support of the "mettā = maternal love" comparison. But your post seems aimed at arguing for a yes answer to the first question and as such doesn’t really touch on what Thanissaro is saying.
just want to say i understand this, ok if my case isnt sufficient, and so vice versa
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:41 am

continued because i could only fit so many screenshots. certainly, friendship is not mettā, but where it involves self-sacrifice, mettā even more so does
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:36 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:41 am
certainly, [private] friendship is not [boundless] mettā
I posted that; when refuting the view about DN 31 that was posted here.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:41 am
but where it involves self-sacrifice, mettā even more so does
Private friendship involves self-sacrifice because it is self-centred. Where as boundless metta, not being self-centred, does not support self-sacrifice.

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:49 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 am
i have looked over ven dhammanando's break-down of the pāḷi, but i honestly have no idea what he is saying.
To put it less pedantically:

In pop Buddhist presentations of mettabhāvanā, verse seven of the Karaṇīyamettasutta is often read as saying that one should love all beings as a mother loves her only child.

Thanissaro thinks that they're wrong to read it this way. In his construal it is the mettā-ful state of mind that is to be developed as a mother guards her only child.

The point of my post was to show that the grammar of the passage clearly supports Thanissaro's construal, not the pop Buddhist one.

And so when you stated that you disagreed with Thanissaro and were going to substantiate this I would have expected you to present some argument showing that the simile doesn't mean what Thanissaro thinks it means; rather, it means whatever you think it means.

Instead you posted a reply that doesn't touch on the Mettasutta at all.

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:21 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:49 am
“Just as a mother would protect her son, her only son, with her own life,
Even so should one develop a state of mind without boundaries with respect to all beings.”

Thanissaro thinks that they're wrong to read it this way. In his construal it is the mettā-ful state of mind that is to be developed as a mother guards her only child.
Brilliant. The practitioner should guard/watch over their own mind to maintain universal metta; similar to how a mother guards/watches over her only child. Thank you for the clarification of the Pali Venerable Dhammanando. At least to me, it makes perfect sense. :heart:

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Re: mettā in commentarial tradition (refutation)

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:49 am

doodoot, it would be self-centred to cling to one's life in a situation where sacrificing one's life to save another is called for. this is my standpoint, and it may not be resolved by just referring to the texts
this is also why i referred to the jātaka, where the bodhisatta sacrifices himself
so, why would one sacrifice their life to cultivate mettā instead of sacrificing their life as a result of love and care for another's wellbeing
this is the complete opposite of how i render this sutta
'humble, easily supported, and [again] not conceited', it is all about diminishing self-view
for the record, here is ven thanissaro's translation:
"As a mother would risk her life
to protect her child, her only child,
even so should one cultivate a limitless heart
with regard to all beings."

https://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/at ... an.ati.htm
the first sutta i was going to share was abhaya sutta to substantiate my interpretation.

mother just as her son, her only son, with her own life would guard, even so with regard to all beings, state of mind [one] should develop without boundaries
or
mother just as her son, her only son, with her own life would guard, even so, state of mind with regard to all beings [one] should develop without boundaries

i'll have to look at it later if at all, it is interesting nonetheless to receive this alternate interpretation. i wouldn't say ven ñāṇananda was a pop culture buddhist
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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