Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

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Nwad
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Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:06 pm

Hello Dear friends,

Are sensual desires and ill will, the 4 and 5 lower fetters, are eliminated/uprooted by equanimity of the 4th jhana? :thinking:

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:11 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:06 pm
Hello Dear friends,

Are sensual desires and ill will, the 4 and 5 lower fetters, are eliminated/uprooted by equanimity of the 4th jhana? :thinking:
Unwholesome tendencies do not arise in Jhanas per definition.
Abandonement of the 4th and 5th Fetter depends on Jhana States.
As a condition for entering Jhana mind needs to be free from Hindrances, achieved in general by preventing, investigating, countering and supressing unwholesome states to minimize arising;
  • Agitation/restlessness/excitement
    Worry
    Doubt
    Sensual Craving
    Sluggishness/lack of energy/drowsiness/sleepiness
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 pm

4th and 5th fetters are destroyed by attaining fruit of non-returning, which is based on jhana. No jhana alone by itself can destroy fetters.

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 pm
4th and 5th fetters are destroyed by attaining fruit of non-returning, which is based on jhana. No jhana alone by itself can destroy fetters.
Glad you mentioned, what i was talking about was indeed in regards to this;
AN 9.36 PTS: A iv 422
Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997

"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

(Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.)
It is true that attaining Rupa (Material) Jhana with or without ekkagata factor or attaining Arupa(Immaterial) Jhanas does not imply Lokuttara Jhana (Supramundane Absorbtion) or [cessation of Nama&Rupa].
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 pm
4th and 5th fetters are destroyed by attaining fruit of non-returning, which is based on jhana. No jhana alone by itself can destroy fetters.
Hello Zom :)

And there is no need specialy the 4th jhana for pretending to get the fruit, or it is jhana itself as experiance witch is a condition? Because i thinked that equanimity have the quality to eliminate "good and bad" and as sensual desire is arising about something perceived as "good" and ill will arising about something percieved as "bad" - so maby the 4th jhana is requested?
What do you think?

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:18 pm

Equanimity has nothing to do with good (kusala) or bad (akusala). This is just a type of feeling.

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:22 am

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:18 pm
Equanimity has nothing to do with good (kusala) or bad (akusala). This is just a type of feeling.
Oops! I did not choisen apropriates words ^^
By good and bad i meant : pleasent and unpleasent feelings ;) Sensual pleasure and ill will are born from them, ist they?

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Zom » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm

No, they are not. Illwill is born from hatred root (dosa), and sensual desire is born from greed root (lobha).

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:22 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:18 pm
4th and 5th fetters are destroyed by attaining fruit of non-returning, which is based on jhana. No jhana alone by itself can destroy fetters.
Why is non returning based on jhana? I've read that before, but I don't understand why jhana is specifically emphasised for non returning.

Anjali
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Nwad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:34 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm
No, they are not. Illwill is born from hatred root (dosa), and sensual desire is born from greed root (lobha).
And you dont think that unpleasent feeling comes from hatered and pleasent feeling from greed too? I think they are from the same fields... in other way why you need jhana is there in no connection between jhanic qualities and roots of suffering... :thinking:

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Zom » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Why is non returning based on jhana? I've read that before, but I don't understand why jhana is specifically emphasised for non returning.
Because of the clean and powerful mind. Only such jhanic mind can uproot these defilements.
And you dont think that unpleasent feeling comes from hatered and pleasent feeling from greed too?
No, because fully enlightened persons also experience pleasant and unpleasant feelings. But they do not generate hatred or craving because of that.
there in no connection between jhanic qualities and roots of suffering...
No direct connection, apart from, maybe, the insight about impermanence of feelings themselves. Jhana is needed not because of absense or presence of feelings but because it makes mind clean and powerful, ready for deep insights.

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:45 am

Zom wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:49 pm
Why is non returning based on jhana? I've read that before, but I don't understand why jhana is specifically emphasised for non returning.
Because of the clean and powerful mind. Only such jhanic mind can uproot these defilements.
And you dont think that unpleasent feeling comes from hatered and pleasent feeling from greed too?
No, because fully enlightened persons also experience pleasant and unpleasant feelings. But they do not generate hatred or craving because of that.
there in no connection between jhanic qualities and roots of suffering...
No direct connection, apart from, maybe, the insight about impermanence of feelings themselves. Jhana is needed not because of absense or presence of feelings but because it makes mind clean and powerful, ready for deep insights.
For me, jhanas seem like side effects as we let go of discursive thinking and relax into the body. The agitation calms down and there is a sense of wholeness. This, however, has nothing to do with insight or the contemplation of the process of perception and cognition and papanca. Some people seem content to stay in jhanas or seek them. Seeing things the way they are is the wonderful message of the Buddha. This can only come from the contemplation of perception and cognition and the deluding factors in dependent origination.

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:06 am

Jhana works as a form of pleasure substitution that allows one to get over the comparatively coarse pleasures of the senses, but insight is required too. The insight can occur without jhanic concentration though:
"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Zom » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:49 am

For me, jhanas seem like side effects as we let go of discursive thinking and relax into the body. The agitation calms down and there is a sense of wholeness.
Not that simple. First, Buddha said that jhanas are "acinteyya" - "unimaginable/unthinkable" thing, something you can't understand until you are in. They are "uttari manussa dhamma" - superhuman phenomenon. This is much more than just relaxation and so on. Jhanas allow one to perform superhuman powers like levitation, walking through walls, cloning your own body, etc. And jhanas along with that allow true deep insight into body/mind nature. That is, first of all, this is an extremely powerful and mystic state of conciousness.

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Re: Sensual desires and ill will are uprooted by equanimity of fourth jhana?

Post by Nwad » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:36 pm

polarbear101 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:06 am
Jhana works as a form of pleasure substitution that allows one to get over the comparatively coarse pleasures of the senses, but insight is required too. The insight can occur without jhanic concentration though:
"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
Thank you Polarbear ! :anjali:

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