Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Dinsdale
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Re: Finding Mahasi Sayadaw Meditation difficult

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:32 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:50 am
Yes. "Noting" just helps to establish mindfulness. But this method alone leads you nowhere, of course. You need also to put efforts in doing different things noted by mindfulness .) (path factor N6)
Sure, but does anyone argue differently? It would be like arguing that people who count the breath in meditation ( I don't ) aren't interested in developing samatha and vipassana.
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Zom
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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by Zom » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:22 pm

Sure, but does anyone argue differently?
Some teachers say that "noting" alone is enough, because it "automatically" lessen your (noted) defilements. But this is not true. At the very least, even for someone this method is effective in blocking negative states (which sometimes happen), this does not work all the time. The Right Views, the desire and effort to get rid of defilements plays much more important role that "noting". Actually this is effective in itself without noting at all (but better with noting, ofc).

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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:37 am

Zom wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:22 pm
Sure, but does anyone argue differently?
Some teachers say that "noting" alone is enough, because it "automatically" lessen your (noted) defilements.
I'd be interested to know which ones say that.
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Zom
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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by Zom » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:41 am

I'd be interested to know which ones say that.
I don't remember names, but I remember I heard/read that hundreds of times in lectures and books on the topic.

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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:44 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:41 am
I'd be interested to know which ones say that.
I don't remember names, but I remember I heard/read that hundreds of times in lectures and books on the topic.
Well, OK, I guess, but I've also come across a lot of :strawman: in discussions like this.
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budo
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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by budo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:00 am

Interesting that people who are responding to this thread are being so dismissive rather than using it as a opportunity to learn something new. Have they attained nibbana already?


SarathW, can you please explain the difference between the two different types of Sati?

Thank you.

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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by Bijlefeld » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:18 am

Just finished watching the video, am I summing it up correctly in that he’s stating that the Mahasi-style noting is just attention, not mindfulness, and that one must examine thoughts, speech, action to see if there are any ignorance, greed, ill-will motivating those. That the more focused attention and decision to perform the speech or action, assuming it has no mitigating factors, without expecting results, is proper sati. And that proper sati and pañña can guard the mind from further defilements and give a chance to realize nibbana?
Those seem to make sense, just wanted to see if there are key points I missed or if I’m off the mark, as my memory isn’t always great.
‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabba­saṅ­khā­ra­sama­tho sabbū­padhipa­ṭi­nissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’

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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:35 am

Wouldn't noting constitute applied thought?
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by budo » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:11 pm

Bijlefeld wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:18 am
Just finished watching the video, am I summing it up correctly in that he’s stating that the Mahasi-style noting is just attention, not mindfulness, and that one must examine thoughts, speech, action to see if there are any ignorance, greed, ill-will motivating those. That the more focused attention and decision to perform the speech or action, assuming it has no mitigating factors, without expecting results, is proper sati. And that proper sati and pañña can guard the mind from further defilements and give a chance to realize nibbana?
Those seem to make sense, just wanted to see if there are key points I missed or if I’m off the mark, as my memory isn’t always great.
I think Henepola Gunaratana has the same view, he thinks Sati is not something as simple as noting. You can see him talk about it in this video clip

So Ven. Pemasiri (Video in the op) also seems to come from the Vipassana camp as well, since in his videos he's saying that he's too old for Jhana meditation and he did that when he was younger. So how does he practice "Vipassana" then? Just momentary concentration and not focusing on one object but instead whatever object arises in his attention? I'm still unclear what his method is.

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Re: Arguing about Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Meditation

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:46 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:11 pm
I think Henepola Gunaratana has the same view, he thinks Sati is not something as simple as noting.
Of course not. Noting is just a minor aspect of the Mahasi approach, used as an aid to developing attention so that one can do the sort of things that Bhante Gunaratana describes.

Most of that video seems to be a criticism of the secular mindfulness approach of dissociating mindfulness from Dhamma.

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