Meditation and Silabbatupadana

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:48 am

Greetings,

Are there are meditation approaches/techniques or attitudes towards meditation, which could be regarding as clinging to rites-and-rituals (silabbatupadana)?

:meditate:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:05 am

which could be regarding as clinging to rites-and-rituals (silabbatupadana)?
I think clinging to meditation is clinging to rites-and-rituals.
Buddha advised us not to cling to meditation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:10 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:05 am
Buddha advised us not to cling to meditation.
Do you happen to have easy access to the sutta which says this?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:38 am

[Do you happen to have easy access to the sutta which says this?/quote]
Sorry, I can't recall it right now.
However, Buddha allowed monks to enjoy meditation pleasures.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by JohnK » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:48 am
Greetings,

Are there are meditation approaches/techniques or attitudes towards meditation, which could be regarding as clinging to rites-and-rituals (silabbatupadana)?

:meditate:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I think "yes." I think a part of one's motivation for meditation could be based on magical thinking. If so, the meditation could be a waste of time ("I'll just sit here and space out -- with great devotion). On the other hand, I think it is possible that the magical thinking could help one "get on the cushion" and nevertheless meditate more correctly. Hmm, it might even be the case that, until stream entry, there will likely be at least some element of "clinging to rites and rituals" as a part of the motivation for meditation.
Paul, why did you ask?
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:22 pm

Greetings John,
JohnK wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Paul, why did you ask?
I'd seen the argument presented in the past, and was keen to see if, and how, it could be substantiated. Furthermore whether there was any scriptural backing behind such reasoning.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Meditation and Silabbatupadana

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:49 pm

Is there a canonical account of what would constitute clinging to rites and rituals, or a description of it?

I ask because I have heard monastics present this in two different ways:

1) As a form of "magical thinking" which attributes supernatural power to publicly understood rituals such as petitionary prayer, chanting, offerings, and the like; and

2) Attachment to particular ways of practising which might be specific to the individual, along the lines of "If I can just avoid dairy in my diet, and make sure that I do my Tai Chi every morning, I know I'll have a great meditation...", etc., etc. This is often based upon past "success" in the practice, and is a deluded attempt to control all the variables so as to maintain optimal momentum.

It seems that both could form the basis for attachment around meditation, but for very different reasons.

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