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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:07 am
by mikenz66
Hmm, perhaps I wasn't clear.

I was replying in the context of:
These "knowledges" are definitely great objects of contemplation, however I must be missing something essential. ...
As I understand it, they are not "objects of contemplation" but knowledges that arise from practice. It is in that sense that they are "signposts" of progress towards liberation.

Many suttas, such as the one I linked to above, contain steps that can be somewhat mapped onto the list, but of course the full list is a later development.

:heart:
Mike

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:13 am
by robertk
archaic wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:23 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:13 pm
Oddly enough, some of the potential side-effects of meditation are even diarrhea and vomiting... :shock:
I can relate to the vomiting. We do many disgusting things without realising it.
Eating certain food, sex etc. could be disgusting and feel like vomiting when you really contemplate on them.
While I do understand what you are saying, during any of the meditation retreats I have been on, I cannot imagine someone just starting to vomit or defecate themselves. This sounds preposterous.
:sage:
Yes, a wrong idea.
And it leads to people thinking that strange occurences of all types are signs of progress.
The visuddimagga, of course, describes actual insight and understanding, nothing ludicrous like these phenomena.

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:29 pm
by archaic
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:20 pm
Hi archaic,
archaic wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:49 pm
... will they be expected to come upon all of these knowledges spontaneously with no previous mention of such concepts?
These are signposts, based on the experience of ancient and modern practitioners. Practitioners following various approaches have reported going through these, or similar, experiences. These are signposts, not things that one strives to "attain".

Here's a mapping of the insight knowledges to the sutta SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions
viewtopic.php?t=11701#p177838

:heart:
Mike
Thanks for the link :P

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:40 am
by mikenz66
You're welcome, archaic.

Different people have different attitudes to "original" and "later" teachings. Since the suttas are very terse, it would be quite reasonable to think that some of the "later" material was the sort of thing that was transmitted via individual instruction and from experience. In the Visudhimagga there are many places where it states "some experience xxx, some experience yyy...". Just like books or talks by modern teachers. Just because these ancient and modern writings are not "spoken by the Buddha doesn't make them incompatible with the Dhamma or worthless. As the link I gave shows, some of the insight knowledges can be maped onto the suttas.

How useful any teaching is (sutta, commentary, or modern) depends on the individual, and the timing. We are fortunate to have access to a variety of approaches.

Mike

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm
by 2600htz
Hello:

Any practice that causes: hallucinations, shaking and tremble, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, etc. doesn´t agree with the suttas and probably wasn´t taught by the Buddha.

Regards.

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:13 pm
by mikenz66
2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm
Any practice that causes: hallucinations, shaking and tremble, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, etc. doesn´t agree with the suttas and probably wasn´t taught by the Buddha.
Well, of course, those are listed under "imperfections" or "corruptions of insight" in the texts...

The development of mindfulness and concentration can have all kinds of side-effects. Uplifting ones (bright light, feeling of floating) and more disconcerting ones (shaking, and so on). Many of these are not really specific to Buddhist practice...

Some of these are hinted at in the suttas. Mostly positive ones, for example, here: viewtopic.php?t=15578
There are also suttas that talk about arising of fear, and so on, and what to do about it.

Any practice that aims to make significant changes to one's mind, and one's life, is likely to have side-effects. Some good, some not so good. I think it would be naive to go into these practices thinking that progress will always be easy and pleasant.

:heart:
Mike

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 am
by 2600htz
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:13 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm
Any practice that causes: hallucinations, shaking and tremble, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, etc. doesn´t agree with the suttas and probably wasn´t taught by the Buddha.
Well, of course, those are listed under "imperfections" or "corruptions of insight" in the texts...

The development of mindfulness and concentration can have all kinds of side-effects. Uplifting ones (bright light, feeling of floating) and more disconcerting ones (shaking, and so on). Many of these are not really specific to Buddhist practice...

Some of these are hinted at in the suttas. Mostly positive ones, for example, here: viewtopic.php?t=15578
There are also suttas that talk about arising of fear, and so on, and what to do about it.

Any practice that aims to make significant changes to one's mind, and one's life, is likely to have side-effects. Some good, some not so good. I think it would be naive to go into these practices thinking that progress will always be easy and pleasant.

:heart:
Mike
Hello:

To my understanding the upakkilesas/imperfections/defilements that are mentioned in the suttas are talking about hindrances, or mental imperfections. I don´t know any sutta where they are described as physical problems, with the exception of when the Buddha was a Bodhisattva and practice austerities (wrong effort).

Regards.

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:44 am
by _anicca_
One of my teachers said, "It's better to not even know about them."

Sankhara-upekkha nana is samadhi (in other terms) and the basis for insight, whether or not you follow the nanas model.

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 am
by mikenz66
2600htz wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 am
To my understanding the upakkilesas/imperfections/defilements that are mentioned in the suttas are talking about hindrances, or mental imperfections. I don´t know any sutta where they are described as physical problems, with the exception of when the Buddha was a Bodhisattva and practice austerities (wrong effort).
Perhaps this is a false dichotomy (physical/mind)? As I understand it piti (rapture) can manifest with various physical factors. Furthermore, we don't need to read suttas to know that anger can manifest physically, fear can lead to physical trembling, and so on. In fact, trembling is mentioned quite often in suttas with reference to fear.

:heart:
Mike

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:16 am
by Hiheyhello
Admin, please deactivate my account. TIA

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 am
by dylanj
yes, the whole Vipassana Movement aside from maybe Webu Sayadaw & others predating Goenka is silly :)

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:19 pm
by mikenz66
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 am
yes, the whole Vipassana Movement aside from maybe Webu Sayadaw & others predating Goenka is silly :)
Well, the nanas predate those people by at least 1500 years, probably longer, so it seems premature to be dismissing them as invalid...

:heart:
Mike

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:21 pm
by dylanj
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:19 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 am
yes, the whole Vipassana Movement aside from maybe Webu Sayadaw & others predating Goenka is silly :)
Well, the nanas predate those people by at least 1500 years, probably longer, so it seems premature to be dismissing them as invalid...

:heart:
Mike
oh lmao

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:02 pm
by LG2V
archaic wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:23 pm
SarathW wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:13 pm
Oddly enough, some of the potential side-effects of meditation are even diarrhea and vomiting... :shock:
I can relate to the vomiting. We do many disgusting things without realising it.
Eating certain food, sex etc. could be disgusting and feel like vomiting when you really contemplate on them.
While I do understand what you are saying, during any of the meditation retreats I have been on, I cannot imagine someone just starting to vomit or defecate themselves. This sounds preposterous.
I think that those are the most extreme cases. To be fair, people have vomited and defecated themselves over less. Say, a quick scare, for example.

Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:39 pm
by mikenz66
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:21 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:19 pm
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 am
yes, the whole Vipassana Movement aside from maybe Webu Sayadaw & others predating Goenka is silly :)
Well, the nanas predate those people by at least 1500 years, probably longer, so it seems premature to be dismissing them as invalid...

:heart:
Mike
oh lmao
Suit yourself. There are many approaches to the Dhamma in general, and meditation in particular, that have been useful to many people for many centuries. As I said, the insight knowledges were documented well over 1500 years ago, and were presumably assembled from the experiences of awakened individuals.

:heart:
Mike