Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:13 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm
Any practice that causes: hallucinations, shaking and tremble, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, etc. doesn´t agree with the suttas and probably wasn´t taught by the Buddha.
Well, of course, those are listed under "imperfections" or "corruptions of insight" in the texts...

The development of mindfulness and concentration can have all kinds of side-effects. Uplifting ones (bright light, feeling of floating) and more disconcerting ones (shaking, and so on). Many of these are not really specific to Buddhist practice...

Some of these are hinted at in the suttas. Mostly positive ones, for example, here: viewtopic.php?t=15578
There are also suttas that talk about arising of fear, and so on, and what to do about it.

Any practice that aims to make significant changes to one's mind, and one's life, is likely to have side-effects. Some good, some not so good. I think it would be naive to go into these practices thinking that progress will always be easy and pleasant.

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Mike

2600htz
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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by 2600htz » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:13 pm
2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm
Any practice that causes: hallucinations, shaking and tremble, nausea, diarrhea, headaches, etc. doesn´t agree with the suttas and probably wasn´t taught by the Buddha.
Well, of course, those are listed under "imperfections" or "corruptions of insight" in the texts...

The development of mindfulness and concentration can have all kinds of side-effects. Uplifting ones (bright light, feeling of floating) and more disconcerting ones (shaking, and so on). Many of these are not really specific to Buddhist practice...

Some of these are hinted at in the suttas. Mostly positive ones, for example, here: viewtopic.php?t=15578
There are also suttas that talk about arising of fear, and so on, and what to do about it.

Any practice that aims to make significant changes to one's mind, and one's life, is likely to have side-effects. Some good, some not so good. I think it would be naive to go into these practices thinking that progress will always be easy and pleasant.

:heart:
Mike
Hello:

To my understanding the upakkilesas/imperfections/defilements that are mentioned in the suttas are talking about hindrances, or mental imperfections. I don´t know any sutta where they are described as physical problems, with the exception of when the Buddha was a Bodhisattva and practice austerities (wrong effort).

Regards.

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_anicca_
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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by _anicca_ » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:44 am

One of my teachers said, "It's better to not even know about them."

Sankhara-upekkha nana is samadhi (in other terms) and the basis for insight, whether or not you follow the nanas model.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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mikenz66
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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 am

2600htz wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 am
To my understanding the upakkilesas/imperfections/defilements that are mentioned in the suttas are talking about hindrances, or mental imperfections. I don´t know any sutta where they are described as physical problems, with the exception of when the Buddha was a Bodhisattva and practice austerities (wrong effort).
Perhaps this is a false dichotomy (physical/mind)? As I understand it piti (rapture) can manifest with various physical factors. Furthermore, we don't need to read suttas to know that anger can manifest physically, fear can lead to physical trembling, and so on. In fact, trembling is mentioned quite often in suttas with reference to fear.

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Mike

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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by Hiheyhello » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:16 am

Hi, the nanas are not "silly." They are a description of what you can expect if your insight practice progresses. The guide in question is written for someone who is a regular practitioner without a teacher. It is not recommended for those who do have a teacher since any meditation experiences you have should be discussed with them. Since you are practicing the body scan technique on retreats (I assume Goenka), you should not worry about this guide as you do have access to meditation instructors at those retreats. As far as I know, this guide is mostly used for practitioners of the Mahasi and Thai Forest traditions and will likely not be covered in other practices.

Most people will not experience every phenomenon from each phase on the list. It is meant as a guidepost so the meditator doesn't get freaked out or discouraged if weird stuff starts happening in the course of practice. As for the vomiting and diarrhea, I have never seen that as a part of the nana descriptions. It is possible for a meditator to become physically ill as they progress through the nanas. Like pain, itching, euphoria, or any other pleasant or unpleasant sensations, it does pass. It doesn't mean that meditator will throw up or diarrhea on themselves. One would hope they would head to the restroom like any adult would if they're feeling ill.

With Metta

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dylanj
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Re: Are Vipassana Nanas silly?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:05 am

yes, the whole Vipassana Movement aside from maybe Webu Sayadaw & others predating Goenka is silly :)
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