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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:56 am
by denise
hello all....just a short note...saw the video and have tried this breathing 3 times now...just for a few minutes and found it helpful...oxygen is always good. If people are depressed or worried, they don't breathe as deeply as they should...wondering if one could over do it though and hyperventilate? thanks

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:00 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Javi,

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
You're just redoing the same argument from the last page retro
Maybe because it's right, and if I had the time to go hunting through the suttas, I could find even more to substantiate this position?

You saying it's the same argument made elsewhere by someone else doesn't make it incorrect all of a sudden, does it?
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
It is a preliminary practice to increase mindfulness
...with no basis whatsoever in the sutta or commentary that I'm aware of, nor that any of its advocates have been able to point to.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 am
by Javi
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:00 am
Greetings Javi,

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
You're just redoing the same argument from the last page retro
Maybe because it's right, and if I had the time to go hunting through the suttas, I could find even more to substantiate this position?
Then do so.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
It is a preliminary practice to increase mindfulness
...with no basis whatsoever in the sutta or commentary that I'm aware of, nor that any of its advocates have been able to point to.
No one claimed it was based on the suttas, only that it helped in establishing mindfulness and vigor, which would correspond to "establishing mindfulness to the fore" in the anapanasati
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...
Metta,
Paul. :)
Since the quote you provided is about one of the sixteen steps, and not about "establishing mindfulness to the fore", it does not apply to this practice which is preliminary to those steps.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:12 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Javi,
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 am
Then do so.
If I have the time and inclination then I may... but if/when I do, I don't expect to hear any complaining about the continuation of the discussion.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
No one claimed it was based on the suttas, only that it helped in establishing mindfulness and vigor
... and both Zom and I have explained to you how that vigor (aka zeal) comes about... "Through zeal he breathes in a long in-breath more subtle than before reckoned as an extent".
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
, which would correspond to "establishing mindfulness to the fore" in the anapanasati
Do you have any support for the inference that inflaming the bodily fabrication promotes the establishing and growth of mindfulness?

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Retro wrote:Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...
Javi wrote:Since the quote you provided is about one of the sixteen steps, and not about "establishing mindfulness to the fore", it does not apply to this practice which is preliminary to those steps.
If you like, but in the meantime the total count of textual sources you've provided to substantiate the benefits of deliberate inflammation of bodily fabrications remains firmly stuck at zero.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:18 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:43 am


Similarly, in the suttas there is frequent mention of the act of tranquilizing the bodily formation...
SN 54.10 wrote:He trains thus: 'Tranquilizing the bodily formation, I will breathe in';
He trains thus: 'Tranquilizing the bodily formation, I will breathe out';..."
Not once have I seen an instruction in the sutta or commentary which advises the meditator to inflame or aggravate the bodily formation with the breath. Have you?

Perhaps an advocate for such folly can point us in the direction of any scriptural support for this position? I would be incredibly interested to see something... anything...?

The only possible instance I can think of is one where the meditator who is on the verge of falling asleep is given a series of possible options by which to keep themselves awake... (AN 7.58) ... but even it does not recommend coarse breathing.
Javi wrote:As has been said before in this thread (and others), the suttas say nothing about controlling the breath.
Yet they do speak of tranquillizing the bodily formation with the breath, and a preference for subtle breath over coarse breath... or are you denying the existence of such sutta instruction? Is there any doctrinal support for your position or is your opposition rooted instead in faith and conjecture?

Metta,
Paul. :)
A point that has been made several times is that the "heavy breathing" is a preliminary practice lasting for a set period, and when that period ends one goes about one's meditative business with a mind that is concentrated, ardent, alert, and mindful. The mind is not "inflamed" during "heavy breathing" period, nor is it "inflamed" after. It is calm, pliable, concentrated, ardent, alert, and mindful.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:24 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

There are standard preliminary exercises in Theravada (e.g. recollection of the Buddha).

Never once have I heard of a preliminary exercise, the undertaking of which, is directly opposed to the instructions and objectives which follow it.

Not until reading this topic, that is...

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:24 am
Greetings,

There are standard preliminary exercises in Theravada (e.g. recollection of the Buddha).

Never once have I heard of a preliminary exercise, the undertaking of which, is directly opposed to the instructions and objectives which follow it.
Neither have I, and the concentrated breathing work certainly does not oppose the "instructions and objectives which follow it", and you and zom have asserted that is the case, but you have not shown it to be so. Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:35 am
by Mkoll
I really don't understand this attacking of other people's anapanasati strategies. The purpose of it is to make the mind calm, clear, collected, and ripe for insight. If someone's breathing strategy is moving them in that direction (and only they could know), we should be happy for them, not pouncing on them.

Jeez.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:36 am
by aflatun
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Good to see you back here sir tilt, hope you'll stick around :hello:

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:40 am
by tiltbillings
Mkoll wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:35 am
I really don't understand this attacking of other people's anapanasati strategies. The purpose of it is to make the mind calm, clear, collected, and ripe for insight. If someone's breathing strategy is moving them in that direction (and only they could know), we should be happy for them, not pouncing on them.

Jeez.
The problem is that the Sunlun method is poorly understood and does not fit some notions of how the Dhamma should be practiced.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am
by tiltbillings
aflatun wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:36 am
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Good to see you back here sir tilt, hope you'll stick around :hello:
Thanks.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.
"...but you have not shown it to be so."

That's fine. I'm happy to regard it as your personal experience or as an article of faith on your part, but I dont intend to regard it as being in any way aligned to or compatible with traditional Dhamma instructions, with zero evidence to support such a contention.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:42 am
by aflatun
You guys don't need all this breath business anyway, just ask "who breathes?"

Or better yet read some Bankei, abide in the Unborn and be done with it...

(Just trying to inject some levity, but half serious as usual... :heart: )

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.
"...but you have not shown it to be so."

That's fine. I'm happy to regard it as your personal experience or as an article of faith on your part, but I dont intend to regard it as being in any way aligned to or compatible with traditional instructions, with zero evidence to support that contention.

Metta,
Paul. :)
That is your opinion, and my opinion is that there is zero evidence that it contravenes good Dhamma practice.

Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 am
and mine opinion is that there is zero evidence that it contravenes good Dhamma practice.
If that's the best Dhammic substantiation that can be provided for such curious huffing, then I guess I have little to respond to.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)