Sunlun Sayadaw method

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denise
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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by denise » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:56 am

hello all....just a short note...saw the video and have tried this breathing 3 times now...just for a few minutes and found it helpful...oxygen is always good. If people are depressed or worried, they don't breathe as deeply as they should...wondering if one could over do it though and hyperventilate? thanks

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:00 am

Greetings Javi,

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
You're just redoing the same argument from the last page retro
Maybe because it's right, and if I had the time to go hunting through the suttas, I could find even more to substantiate this position?

You saying it's the same argument made elsewhere by someone else doesn't make it incorrect all of a sudden, does it?
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
It is a preliminary practice to increase mindfulness
...with no basis whatsoever in the sutta or commentary that I'm aware of, nor that any of its advocates have been able to point to.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Javi
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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by Javi » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:00 am
Greetings Javi,

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
You're just redoing the same argument from the last page retro
Maybe because it's right, and if I had the time to go hunting through the suttas, I could find even more to substantiate this position?
Then do so.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
It is a preliminary practice to increase mindfulness
...with no basis whatsoever in the sutta or commentary that I'm aware of, nor that any of its advocates have been able to point to.
No one claimed it was based on the suttas, only that it helped in establishing mindfulness and vigor, which would correspond to "establishing mindfulness to the fore" in the anapanasati
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...
Metta,
Paul. :)
Since the quote you provided is about one of the sixteen steps, and not about "establishing mindfulness to the fore", it does not apply to this practice which is preliminary to those steps.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:12 am

Greetings Javi,
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:06 am
Then do so.
If I have the time and inclination then I may... but if/when I do, I don't expect to hear any complaining about the continuation of the discussion.
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
No one claimed it was based on the suttas, only that it helped in establishing mindfulness and vigor
... and both Zom and I have explained to you how that vigor (aka zeal) comes about... "Through zeal he breathes in a long in-breath more subtle than before reckoned as an extent".
Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
, which would correspond to "establishing mindfulness to the fore" in the anapanasati
Do you have any support for the inference that inflaming the bodily fabrication promotes the establishing and growth of mindfulness?

Javi wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:55 am
did you read the whole thread or tilt's posts?
Retro wrote:Yes, and your fondness of someone else's comments does not constitute a valid argument. If you have something which negates or provides a counter-argument to the sutta and commentary in my previous post, then by all means present it...
Javi wrote:Since the quote you provided is about one of the sixteen steps, and not about "establishing mindfulness to the fore", it does not apply to this practice which is preliminary to those steps.
If you like, but in the meantime the total count of textual sources you've provided to substantiate the benefits of deliberate inflammation of bodily fabrications remains firmly stuck at zero.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:43 am


Similarly, in the suttas there is frequent mention of the act of tranquilizing the bodily formation...
SN 54.10 wrote:He trains thus: 'Tranquilizing the bodily formation, I will breathe in';
He trains thus: 'Tranquilizing the bodily formation, I will breathe out';..."
Not once have I seen an instruction in the sutta or commentary which advises the meditator to inflame or aggravate the bodily formation with the breath. Have you?

Perhaps an advocate for such folly can point us in the direction of any scriptural support for this position? I would be incredibly interested to see something... anything...?

The only possible instance I can think of is one where the meditator who is on the verge of falling asleep is given a series of possible options by which to keep themselves awake... (AN 7.58) ... but even it does not recommend coarse breathing.
Javi wrote:As has been said before in this thread (and others), the suttas say nothing about controlling the breath.
Yet they do speak of tranquillizing the bodily formation with the breath, and a preference for subtle breath over coarse breath... or are you denying the existence of such sutta instruction? Is there any doctrinal support for your position or is your opposition rooted instead in faith and conjecture?

Metta,
Paul. :)
A point that has been made several times is that the "heavy breathing" is a preliminary practice lasting for a set period, and when that period ends one goes about one's meditative business with a mind that is concentrated, ardent, alert, and mindful. The mind is not "inflamed" during "heavy breathing" period, nor is it "inflamed" after. It is calm, pliable, concentrated, ardent, alert, and mindful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:24 am

Greetings,

There are standard preliminary exercises in Theravada (e.g. recollection of the Buddha).

Never once have I heard of a preliminary exercise, the undertaking of which, is directly opposed to the instructions and objectives which follow it.

Not until reading this topic, that is...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:24 am
Greetings,

There are standard preliminary exercises in Theravada (e.g. recollection of the Buddha).

Never once have I heard of a preliminary exercise, the undertaking of which, is directly opposed to the instructions and objectives which follow it.
Neither have I, and the concentrated breathing work certainly does not oppose the "instructions and objectives which follow it", and you and zom have asserted that is the case, but you have not shown it to be so. Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mkoll
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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by Mkoll » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:35 am

I really don't understand this attacking of other people's anapanasati strategies. The purpose of it is to make the mind calm, clear, collected, and ripe for insight. If someone's breathing strategy is moving them in that direction (and only they could know), we should be happy for them, not pouncing on them.

Jeez.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by aflatun » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:36 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Good to see you back here sir tilt, hope you'll stick around :hello:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:40 am

Mkoll wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:35 am
I really don't understand this attacking of other people's anapanasati strategies. The purpose of it is to make the mind calm, clear, collected, and ripe for insight. If someone's breathing strategy is moving them in that direction (and only they could know), we should be happy for them, not pouncing on them.

Jeez.
The problem is that the Sunlun method is poorly understood and does not fit some notions of how the Dhamma should be practiced.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am

aflatun wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:36 am
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Good to see you back here sir tilt, hope you'll stick around :hello:
Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.
"...but you have not shown it to be so."

That's fine. I'm happy to regard it as your personal experience or as an article of faith on your part, but I dont intend to regard it as being in any way aligned to or compatible with traditional Dhamma instructions, with zero evidence to support such a contention.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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aflatun
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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by aflatun » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:42 am

You guys don't need all this breath business anyway, just ask "who breathes?"

Or better yet read some Bankei, abide in the Unborn and be done with it...

(Just trying to inject some levity, but half serious as usual... :heart: )
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:41 am
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am
Quite to the contrary, it supports the instructions and objectives.
"...but you have not shown it to be so."

That's fine. I'm happy to regard it as your personal experience or as an article of faith on your part, but I dont intend to regard it as being in any way aligned to or compatible with traditional instructions, with zero evidence to support that contention.

Metta,
Paul. :)
That is your opinion, and my opinion is that there is zero evidence that it contravenes good Dhamma practice.
Last edited by tiltbillings on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 am
and mine opinion is that there is zero evidence that it contravenes good Dhamma practice.
If that's the best Dhammic substantiation that can be provided for such curious huffing, then I guess I have little to respond to.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:02 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:18 pm
tilt wrote:Your criticism is grounded in opinion, but certainly not experience.
Quite bold statement, don't you think?
Possibly, but certainly less so than your dismissal of this practice.
But, if you are really interested, from the perspective of personal experience I can say this: if you really want an effective preliminary exercise - you should build up and keep up heightened awareness to all kinds of your bodily actions during the whole day or more - before starting sitting meditation. This will help.
Of course it will, and I know this to be so since it is what I do as part of my day in/day out practice.
Doing any kind of physical exercises (I include forcing the breath here as well) for some 5-10-20 minutes before anapanasati will hardly give you anything - you'll get same results if you skip it altogether.
And in regards to “forced breathing” (Kornfield uses “heavy breathing”) you are speaking from direct personal experience of doing this sort of practice? It is not my experience in regard to the Sunlun inspired concentrated breathing practice I have done.
zom wrote:However, as I've said earlier - forcing the breath can lead to an altered state of mind - that one you get when you inflate a balloon. This is not any kind of "progress" or "success" - but simply a chemical reaction in your body. 8-)
I know of what you speak. I cannot address a formal Sunlun retreat and how that is dealt with in a retreat setting by experienced teachers. Also, I expect that the body acclimatizes to the kind of breathing. For myself, it has not been, and is not an issue, since my breathing is not as intense as it is in the retreats.
Last edited by tiltbillings on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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pilgrim
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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by pilgrim » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:13 am

As pointed out above, Sunlun's instruction for heavy breathing is not an end in itself but merely a strategy to gain concentration not unlike counting the breath or using the mantra Buddho. If this does not count as anapanasati, then it would still be within Satipatthana, just like Mahasi's use of the abdomen as the subject. There are many other innovations which have a tenous connection to the suttas. Ajahn Suthep's dynamic meditation on the stylised hand movements is another. I suspect aversion to Sunlun's method is not so much his choice of subject but because it appears coarse and rough and not as refined as Ajahn Suthep's choreography of hand movements.

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 am
Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 am
and mine opinion is that there is zero evidence that it contravenes good Dhamma practice.
If that's the best Dhammic substantiation that can be provided for such curious huffing, then I guess I have little to respond to.
If it is feeble it is no less so than the arguments you and zom have proffered.
retro wrote:Huffing.
Interestingly snide choice of words.
MN 118/MN 10 wrote:“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.

“Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’
In MN 118/MN 10 there is nothing that says how long or how exactly one must or should do a particular aspect of the practice outlined in either discourse, nor is it described exactly how it must be done. So cultivating concentration/mindfulness by paying attention to one's breathing done in a strong steady pattern for a period is not out of bounds in regards to the opening directives of MN 118 and MN 10.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:24 am

pilgrim wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:13 am
As pointed out above, Sunlun's instruction for heavy breathing is not an end in itself but merely a strategy to gain concentration not unlike counting the breath or using the mantra Buddho. If this does not count as anapanasati, then it would still be within Satipatthana, just like Mahasi's use of the abdomen as the subject. There are many other innovations which have a tenous connection to the suttas. Ajahn Suthep's dynamic meditation on the stylised hand movements is another. I suspect aversion to Sunlun's method is not so much his choice of subject but because it appears coarse and rough and not as refined as Ajahn Suthep's choreography of hand movements.
Nicely stated.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Sunlun Sayadaw method

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:34 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:23 am
If it is feeble it is no less so than the arguments you and zom have proffered.
Despite your protests, it is indeed much less. Zom and I have provided Sutta, Suttānuloma and Atthakathā. Advocates of the coarse breathing technique invented by Sunlun Sayadaw have provided mere Attanomati.

It is clear how the Theravada tradition would judge such a situation based upon the ranking system provided below, but in respecting the intellectual and spiritual autonomy of others, it can be left for the individual to decide which source of reason and guidance is more compelling to them personally.
1. Sutta: the three baskets of the Tipiṭaka.
2. Suttānuloma: a direct inference from the Tipiṭaka.
3. Atthakathā: a commentary.
4. Attanomati: the personal opinions of later generations of teachers.
Javi wrote:Sunlun Sayadaw taught himself to practice, with little instructions, which is probably why he developed a style which is atypical. Even though it is similar to some forms of Indian pranayama, the evidence points to being something he came up with himself.
I am happy to conclude the matter at this point if you are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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