Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
form
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Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:17 pm

DCM wrote:Hi Form, thanks for the reply, can you explain how they attain insights after coming out of Jhana please?
I refer to a good forest monk.

To do that, they must have cultivated a very firm foundation on meditation. Despite of the knowledge of dharma they heard or have in mind, they let go of all when meditating to cultivate the factors of enlightenment. After they are successful in a meditation session and feel that they want to stop the session, they emerge from the state, and they could have certain insights. For those that is incapable of maintaining stable concentration, they may also have insights that is more distorted and less clear to the consciousness.

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bodom
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Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:59 am

form wrote:
DCM wrote:Hi Form, thanks for the reply, can you explain how they attain insights after coming out of Jhana please?
I refer to a good forest monk.

To do that, they must have cultivated a very firm foundation on meditation. Despite of the knowledge of dharma they heard or have in mind, they let go of all when meditating to cultivate the factors of enlightenment. After they are successful in a meditation session and feel that they want to stop the session, they emerge from the state, and they could have certain insights. For those that is incapable of maintaining stable concentration, they may also have insights that is more distorted and less clear to the consciousness.
The idea that one must come out of jhana to practice insight is a commentarial one. The suttas are quite clear that insight is practiced while in jhana.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

form
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by form » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:09 pm

bodom wrote:
form wrote:
DCM wrote:Hi Form, thanks for the reply, can you explain how they attain insights after coming out of Jhana please?
I refer to a good forest monk.

To do that, they must have cultivated a very firm foundation on meditation. Despite of the knowledge of dharma they heard or have in mind, they let go of all when meditating to cultivate the factors of enlightenment. After they are successful in a meditation session and feel that they want to stop the session, they emerge from the state, and they could have certain insights. For those that is incapable of maintaining stable concentration, they may also have insights that is more distorted and less clear to the consciousness.
The idea that one must come out of jhana to practice insight is a commentarial one. The suttas are quite clear that insight is practiced while in jhana.

:namaste:
Sutta do not give the details on either ways.

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bodom
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Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:57 pm

But they do:
I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Whatever qualities there are in the second jhana — internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the fading of rapture, Sariputta — remaining in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure — entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Whatever qualities there are in the third jhana — equanimity-pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

form
Posts: 638
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Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by form » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:12 pm

bodom wrote:But they do:
I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Whatever qualities there are in the second jhana — internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the fading of rapture, Sariputta — remaining in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure — entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Whatever qualities there are in the third jhana — equanimity-pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
There is no mentioning of whether when he contemplate he is in or out of jhanas. It can also be assumed that his Jhanic status is rapidly changing during that short period.

Based on sutta info, higher than first jhanas, there is no logical thoughts.

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bodom
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Re: Monks Average Meditation Routine

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:15 pm

form wrote:
bodom wrote:But they do:
I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, saying, "Monks."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, Sariputta entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. Whatever qualities there are in the second jhana — internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the fading of rapture, Sariputta — remaining in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure — entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' Whatever qualities there are in the third jhana — equanimity-pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;[3] singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
There is no mentioning of whether when he contemplate he is in and out of jhanas.

Based on sutta info, higher than first jhanas, there is no logical thoughts.
This Sutta explicitly states he is in jhana. It literally says he "enters and remained" in the jhana. It doesn't get much clearer than this.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

form
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:37 pm

There are info in other sutta that contradict.

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:45 pm

The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He has attained mastery & perfection in noble virtue... noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He has attained mastery & perfection in noble virtue... noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release.'

"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
The following are Ajahn Thanissaros notes:
1.
"Clearly saw insight": In Pali, this is vipassanam vipassi, which could be translated literally as "clearly saw clear seeing" or "insighted insight." The Commentary states that the half month mentioned here refers to the half month between Ven. Sariputta's ordination and his attainment of arahantship, described in MN 74. These two suttas treat Sariputta's attainment from two different perspectives. This sutta shows it from the standpoint of his mastery of the four jhanas and the formless attainments based on the fourth jhana. That sutta shows it as occurring when he starts reflecting on a point while listening to a discourse that the Buddha is giving to his nephew. To put the two suttas together, we can infer that prior to the discourse given in MN 74, Sariputta had mastered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. While listening to the discourse, he reflected on the point that the Buddha recommended abandoning all mental qualities through direct knowledge. This would have led him to the cessation of perception and feeling (during which he would not be listening to the discourse) and so to Awakening.
2.
Reading viññanam with the Thai edition of the Canon. The Burmese and PTS editions read cittam, which could mean "mind" or "intent" (as in the four bases of success).
3.
Reading passaddhattaa with the Burmese edition. The Thai edition reads, parisuddhattaa, "through purity." The Sinhalese edition reads pasiddhataa, which would mean "empowerment" (? — this term is not listed in the PTS Dictionary). The PTS edition reads passi vedanaa, which is unintelligible.
4.
Notice that, with each of the previous levels of attainment, Sariputta was able to ferret out the various mental qualities arising there while he was still in the attainment. With this attainment and the following one, however, he was not able to analyze the mental qualities present and absent there until after he had left the attainment. The difference here is related to the point made in AN IX.36 that all the attainments up through the dimension of nothingness are "perception-attainments." And that, "As far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."
For a discussion of how insight can be developed in the context of jhana, see The Wings to Awakening, IIIF.
:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

Saengnapha
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:29 am

form wrote:There are info in other sutta that contradict.
If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.

JiWe2
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by JiWe2 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:40 am

"Whatever qualities there are in the first/second/third/fourth jhana — [...] — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'
There's an interesting comment about the above part(s) of Anupada Sutta in Venerable Anālayo's recent book "Early Buddhist Meditation Studies":
According to the above description in the Anupada-sutta,
“known these states arise, known they remain, known they dis-
appear”, viditā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhat-
thaṃ gacchanti
. This provides an important indication for a
proper appreciation of the discourse, which clearly depicts a
mode of contemplation where Sāriputta is aware of these states
arising and, after they have remained for a while, he is also
aware when they disappear.

To cultivate such awareness of these mental qualities arising
and disappearing while being in an absorption is impossible,
because the very presence of these qualities is required for
there to be an absorption in the first place and for it to continue
being a state of absorption.

The formulation used in the discourse makes it clear that
the passage does not intend to refer to the momentary change
of mental qualities. The Anupada-sutta clearly specifies that
Sāriputta observes the arising of mental qualities which “have
not been, come into being”, ahutvā sambhonti, and he contem-
plates their disappearance when “having been, they disappear”,
hutvā paṭiventi. 25 The notion of momentariness, according to
which phenomena pass away on the spot at every moment, is
in fact a relatively late development in Buddhist thought. 26 It
can safely be set aside as not forming the backdrop of the early
discourses.

So when these states have not yet come into being or disap-
pear, a practitioner inevitably is not yet or no longer in the ab-
sorption, simply because the absorption lasts only as long as
all of the mental qualities that characterize it are fully present.
Therefore to observe the arising of these mental qualities and
their disappearance could only happen before an absorption is
attained or after the attainment has come to an end.

Anālayo, p.121, part "Insight Meditation During Absorption" p. 116-123.
http://www.academia.edu/32702524/Early_ ... on_Studies

form
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:17 am

Saengnapha wrote:
form wrote:There are info in other sutta that contradict.
If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.
What did u confirm from your experience?

As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.

Saengnapha
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:56 pm

form wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:
form wrote:There are info in other sutta that contradict.
If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.
What did u confirm from your experience?

As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
It doesn't matter what my experience is with jhanas as it will necessarily be different than yours. All experiences/states are substantially empty and impermanent. Why give them any thought? The experiencer desires something and attaches importance to it. For me, this is the activity of bondage, not freedom.

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm

form wrote:
Saengnapha wrote:
form wrote:There are info in other sutta that contradict.
If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.


As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

pyluyten
Posts: 50
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by pyluyten » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:00 pm

As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books.
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^

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bodom
Posts: 5878
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:29 pm

pyluyten wrote:
As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books.
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^
And that it is why it is best to practice under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

form
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:56 pm

. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make sense.

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bodom
Posts: 5878
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:40 pm

form wrote:
. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make
I thought so too.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:51 am

="bodom"]
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^
bodom wrote: that it is why it is best to practice under a qualified teacher.

Even under a teacher, the pitfalls remain. No teacher can spare you no matter how many times they warn or instruct you. You are the only one who can confirm your own state. If you fool yourself, it's only a matter of time before you begin to see it. Some take less time than others. :shrug:

form
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 am

Saengnapha wrote:
="bodom"]
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^
bodom wrote: that it is why it is best to practice under a qualified teacher.

Even under a teacher, the pitfalls remain. No teacher can spare you no matter how many times they warn or instruct you. You are the only one who can confirm your own state. If you fool yourself, it's only a matter of time before you begin to see it. Some take less time than others. :shrug:
This thing u talk about teacher also made sense.

form
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:08 am

bodom wrote:
form wrote:
. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make
I thought so too.

:anjali:
What do u think of formless realms are still 4th jhanas, just a change in the object of attention?

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