Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

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form
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:56 pm

. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make sense.

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:40 pm

form wrote:
. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make
I thought so too.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

Saengnapha
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:51 am

="bodom"]
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^
bodom wrote: that it is why it is best to practice under a qualified teacher.

Even under a teacher, the pitfalls remain. No teacher can spare you no matter how many times they warn or instruct you. You are the only one who can confirm your own state. If you fool yourself, it's only a matter of time before you begin to see it. Some take less time than others. :shrug:

form
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 am

Saengnapha wrote:
="bodom"]
there is no clear bell telling you, "hey dude!, hre we are, this is jhana 3!". Some people will think they have reached, but no. Some people might think not yet, but yes. Issue is, despite practicing, one still relies on book to put a name on his practice ; so debate about what we call what cannot be avoided. And since subjective mental states cannot be measured, we are doomed to try our best to be honnest ^^
bodom wrote: that it is why it is best to practice under a qualified teacher.

Even under a teacher, the pitfalls remain. No teacher can spare you no matter how many times they warn or instruct you. You are the only one who can confirm your own state. If you fool yourself, it's only a matter of time before you begin to see it. Some take less time than others. :shrug:
This thing u talk about teacher also made sense.

form
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by form » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:08 am

bodom wrote:
form wrote:
. The second half of the sutta I quoted shows that that the only time one must withdraw from jhana to practice insight is when one reaches the formless Jhanas:
This make
I thought so too.

:anjali:
What do u think of formless realms are still 4th jhanas, just a change in the object of attention?

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:28 am

Hi,
I start vipassana from the plane of accsess-concentration. I follow instructions based on thai forest tradtion/teachings.

best :smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:36 pm

form wrote:What do u think of formless realms are still 4th jhanas, just a change in the object of attention?
Well yes as the deeper one moves into the formless attainments the more objects are relinquished until the highest and final attainment of cessation of feeling and perception. There are literally no more objects of attention to be let go of.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm

bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm
form wrote:
Saengnapha wrote: If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.


As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm
form wrote:

As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm

bodom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm


Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
Bodom, can you direct me to any suttas where the Buddha speaks directly about jhanas? Not any of the commentaries, but suttas themselves. Also, where does the Buddha say that jhanas are the cause or condition of the 3 knowledges of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self?

The first time I experienced jhana was almost 50 years ago, spontaneously, and without ever hearing the word. I am not unfamiliar with it.

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm


What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
Bodom, can you direct me to any suttas where the Buddha speaks directly about jhanas? Not any of the commentaries, but suttas themselves. Also, where does the Buddha say that jhanas are the cause or condition of the 3 knowledges of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self?

The first time I experienced jhana was almost 50 years ago, spontaneously, and without ever hearing the word. I am not unfamiliar with it.
Sorry I am unable to post links at this time but please search access to insight website for jhana and it will give you tons of results.

Also you will not find a sutta where the Buddha says that jhana will lead to the knowledges of anicca, dukkha and anatta because they are not knowledges. They are perceptions to induce dispassion and disenchantment for the 5 aggregates.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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