Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:28 am

Hi,
I start vipassana from the plane of accsess-concentration. I follow instructions based on thai forest tradtion/teachings.

best :smile:
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:36 pm

form wrote:What do u think of formless realms are still 4th jhanas, just a change in the object of attention?
Well yes as the deeper one moves into the formless attainments the more objects are relinquished until the highest and final attainment of cessation of feeling and perception. There are literally no more objects of attention to be let go of.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

Saengnapha
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm

bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm
form wrote:
Saengnapha wrote: If you really want an answer to your objections, you must enter Jhanas and see for yourself. There is no basis for blind belief in one sutta over another. Context and other factors will determine what is spoken of by the Buddha or any other teacher.


As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm
form wrote:

As a matter of fact, even the definition of jhana is debatable.
Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

Saengnapha
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm

bodom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:02 pm


Not for those who practice it. Disagreements arise only over the explanations from books. Best bet is to experience jhana for yourself under a qualified teacher.

:anjali:
What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
Bodom, can you direct me to any suttas where the Buddha speaks directly about jhanas? Not any of the commentaries, but suttas themselves. Also, where does the Buddha say that jhanas are the cause or condition of the 3 knowledges of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self?

The first time I experienced jhana was almost 50 years ago, spontaneously, and without ever hearing the word. I am not unfamiliar with it.

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bodom
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Re: Is insight practiced in or out of jhana?

Post by bodom » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:18 pm
bodom wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 pm


What has jhana done for you? Why are you so interested in it?
Because it is part of the eightfold path and I would hope every serious Buddhist meditator would be interested in it.

:anjali:
Bodom, can you direct me to any suttas where the Buddha speaks directly about jhanas? Not any of the commentaries, but suttas themselves. Also, where does the Buddha say that jhanas are the cause or condition of the 3 knowledges of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self?

The first time I experienced jhana was almost 50 years ago, spontaneously, and without ever hearing the word. I am not unfamiliar with it.
Sorry I am unable to post links at this time but please search access to insight website for jhana and it will give you tons of results.

Also you will not find a sutta where the Buddha says that jhana will lead to the knowledges of anicca, dukkha and anatta because they are not knowledges. They are perceptions to induce dispassion and disenchantment for the 5 aggregates.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


"Dont send the mind outside. Watch the mind right at the mind."

- Ajahn Dune Atulo

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