formal meditation in groups

[mirco]

Dhamma Greetings,

this is about, as the title suggests, doing formal meditation in groups. As far as I can remember the Suttas, I never read, that the Buddha recommended to sit in groups. Only suggestions to sit at the foot of trees or empty huts, but never 'groups'. But meditating in groups is what all the Sanghas I know are doing. Compared to the Suttas -- is there something wrong with that?

Kind regards

[Caodemarte]

There are recommendations to mediate alone as a hermit. However, the suttas are also full of references to the Buddha mediating with others and the early sangha and assemblies meditating together. It was clearly the practice to have long group retreats in the rainy season for the sangha. Although there was an early controversy over which was preferable (hermits vs. monastics) I strongly doubt you could say there is anything wrong in group meditation from a sutta view

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Take account of the fact that many forest monks and nuns in the Buddha's time were already Noble Ones, and were developing concentration for higher stages.

Nowadays, most are not so pure-hearted and may need some group support to keep them practising consistently. Most meditation centres have group sittings and meditators are expect to spend most of their time in the meditation hall together with other meditators. If left too much to their own devices, they will become negligent.

[SarathW]

There is a Sutta to support Ven. Pesala's statement.
Buddha ask a particular monk not to go to solitary meditation until his virtues are perfected.

[Goofaholix]

I think some things can best be left to common sense, no need for it to be explicitly in the suttas, if you are together with a group of like minded people why wouldn't you sit together. There is no sutta recommending a toilet break before sitting either but given the opportunity I make damned sure that I do.

[mirco]

Greetings, SarathW,

There is a Sutta to support Ven. Pesala's statement.
Buddha ask a particular monk not to go to solitary meditation until his virtues are perfected.

do you remember, which Sutta that was?

Kind Regards

[cjmacie]

On the other hand -- meditation retreats focusing on developing jhana-type concentration -- having been to many such retreats (and under three different teacher-groups), and witnessing the difficulties of progressing, in my own experience and many others'.

In my own case, substantial progress was made possible by taking the sitting sessions OUT of the common hall, into the bedroom, or tent, or (at one center) a remote and rarely occupied "meditation cottage". Then:

1) one can go at one's own pace, e.g. longer sessions to work with the deeper concentration that naturally comes after, say, 40-50 minutes. Retreats that use 45 minute sessions -- forget it. Even 1-hour sessions break-up just as the point where deepening progress is being reached. ("Milage may vary" as to the durations mentioned here; after getting to know absorption better, my experience is that it's possible to get to "access" in 10-20 minutes, under good conditions. Even under less ideal conditions -- particularly unsettled mind coming in -- getting there at by 40-50 minutes is quite reliable.)

2) one is free of the ubiquitous disturbances of people coming and going; squeaking chairs; coughing, nose blowing; etc. (Edit: Reminds me of a theme in the Culasunnata Sutta -- there still will be "disturbance", but the degree can be crucial for concentration.)

Clearly, the sutta-instructions recommend actual (physical) solitude as condition for developing the mental "seclusion" that's gateway to absorption.

It should be possible, at the meditation centers I've been at, to arrange more private spaces for sitting -- in private sleeping quarters, or out-lying shelters.

[SarathW]

Greetings, SarathW,

There is a Sutta to support Ven. Pesala's statement.
Buddha ask a particular monk not to go to solitary meditation until his virtues are perfected.

do you remember, which Sutta that was?

Kind Regards

Sorry I can't recall it.

[robertk]

Greetings, SarathW,

There is a Sutta to support Ven. Pesala's statement.
Buddha ask a particular monk not to go to solitary meditation until his virtues are perfected.

do you remember, which Sutta that was?

Kind Regards

Sorry I can't recall it.

http://obo.genaud.net/backmatter/append ... /upali.htm
At the request of the Sakyan youths, the Buddha ordained Upali before them all, so that their pride might be humbled.. . When Upali went to the Buddha for an exercise for meditation, he asked that he might be allowed to dwell in the forest. But the Buddha would not agree, for if Upali went into the forest he would learn only meditation, while, if he remained amongst men, he would have knowledge both of meditation and of the word of the Dhamma. Upali accepted the Buddha's advice and, practicing insight, in due course won arahantship. The Buddha himself taught Upali the whole of the Vinaya Pitaka.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

I suspect that Sarath was thinking of the Meghiya Sutta

[mirco]

Dhamma Greetings Ven. Pesala,

Take account of the fact that many forest monks and nuns in the Buddha's time were already Noble Ones, and were developing concentration for higher stages.

Nowadays, most are not so pure-hearted and may need some group support to keep them practising consistently. Most meditation centres have group sittings and meditators are expect to spend most of their time in the meditation hall together with other meditators. If left too much to their own devices, they will become negligent.

This was helpful. Thank you.

[mirco]

Dhamma Greetings,

I suspect that Sarath was thinking of the Meghiya Sutta

Thanks!

[mirco]

Dhamma Greetings cjmacie,

On the other hand -- meditation retreats focusing on developing jhana-type concentration -- having been to many such retreats (and under three different teacher-groups), and witnessing the difficulties of progressing, in my own experience and many others'.

In my own case, substantial progress was made possible by taking the sitting sessions OUT of the common hall, into the bedroom, or tent, or (at one center) a remote and rarely occupied "meditation cottage". Then:

1) one can go at one's own pace, e.g. longer sessions to work with the deeper concentration that naturally comes after, say, 40-50 minutes. Retreats that use 45 minute sessions -- forget it. Even 1-hour sessions break-up just as the point where deepening progress is being reached. ("Milage may vary" as to the durations mentioned here; after getting to know absorption better, my experience is that it's possible to get to "access" in 10-20 minutes, under good conditions. Even under less ideal conditions -- particularly unsettled mind coming in -- getting there at by 40-50 minutes is quite reliable.)

[...]

It should be possible, at the meditation centers I've been at, to arrange more private spaces for sitting -- in private sleeping quarters, or out-lying shelters.

actually, that is how the schedule of these retreats are.

Kind Regards

[Spiny Norman]

Dhamma Greetings,

this is about, as the title suggests, doing formal meditation in groups. As far as I can remember the Suttas, I never read, that the Buddha recommended to sit in groups. Only suggestions to sit at the foot of trees or empty huts, but never 'groups'. But meditating in groups is what all the Sanghas I know are doing. Compared to the Suttas -- is there something wrong with that?

Kind regards

I am mostly a solitary meditator, but I also appreciate regular group meditation with a local sangha. Regularity of practice seems to be the important factor.

[SarathW]

I suspect that Sarath was thinking of the Meghiya Sutta

Thank you Bhante.
Yes it is the Sutta I was thinking of.