Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
lotus flower
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Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by lotus flower » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:00 pm

I do Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice. At the last months i experience interesting things. Sometimes i have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha for months. Later i usually lose the faith and doubts comes up. Is this a sign that i am near to Stream Entry? Did someone experienced it?
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

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acinteyyo
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:06 pm

lotus flower wrote:I do Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice. At the last months i experience interesting things. Sometimes i have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha for months. Later i usually lose the faith and doubts comes up. Is this a sign that i am near to Stream Entry?
No, it isn't. It is a sign that you still waver between faith and doubt, which means the hindrance of doubt has not been overcome yet.
lotus flower wrote:Did someone experienced it?
What exactly do you mean? Whether someone experienced stream-entry or the changing of phases of faith and doubt?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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_anicca_
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by _anicca_ » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:24 pm

Stream-entry is a lot more than just intellectual understanding.
There are many experiences you will have along the way before you are a stream-entrant/sotapanna: becoming skilled in the jhanas, the dropping away of many unwholesome behaviors, and a strong aversion to the breaking of the 5-precepts.

:anjali:
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

paul
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by paul » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:58 am

You are expected to have doubt as long as you are resolving it by investigation; you may not be doing enough insight meditation.

Kabouterke
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Kabouterke » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:10 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
lotus flower wrote:I do Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice. At the last months i experience interesting things. Sometimes i have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha for months. Later i usually lose the faith and doubts comes up. Is this a sign that i am near to Stream Entry?
No, it isn't. It is a sign that you still waver between faith and doubt, which means the hindrance of doubt has not been overcome yet.
Accinteyo, your quote makes it seem like the five hindrances can be overcome once and for all, and that doubt won't reappear in meditation once it's conquered. At least, that's how I'm reading it. I just want to point out to the OP that doubt is a theme that can re-occur at any point in your meditative career. After all, it's only after gaining stream-entry that you get a big dose of confidence in the practice all at once.

The best way to handle doubt is to treat it like any other of the main hindrances using the technique that your school of meditation teaches.

Saoshun
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Saoshun » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:17 am

What do you doubt about?
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

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acinteyyo
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by acinteyyo » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:38 pm

Kabouterke wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
lotus flower wrote:I do Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice. At the last months i experience interesting things. Sometimes i have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha for months. Later i usually lose the faith and doubts comes up. Is this a sign that i am near to Stream Entry?
No, it isn't. It is a sign that you still waver between faith and doubt, which means the hindrance of doubt has not been overcome yet.
Accinteyo, your quote makes it seem like the five hindrances can be overcome once and for all, and that doubt won't reappear in meditation once it's conquered. At least, that's how I'm reading it. I just want to point out to the OP that doubt is a theme that can re-occur at any point in your meditative career. After all, it's only after gaining stream-entry that you get a big dose of confidence in the practice all at once.

The best way to handle doubt is to treat it like any other of the main hindrances using the technique that your school of meditation teaches.
Hi,
I was refering to the hindrance of doubt only. What made it seem to you that I was talking about all the five hindrances?
In my understanding the OP asked whether or not having faith in the triple gem for months can be a sign that one is near to stream entry even when one some time later loses faith and doubts arise again.

My answer was, that it is not a sign for stream entry but it indicates clearly that the hindrance of doubt has not been overcome.

As you say, it is with the attainment of streamentry, that unshakable faith is reached and therefore I pointed out, that longer periods of faith as described in the OP is not a sufficient indicator for stream entry.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

practitioner
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by practitioner » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:59 pm

Doubt is hindrance that puts one further away from dhamma.

Saoshun
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Saoshun » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:03 am

practitioner wrote:Doubt is hindrance that puts one further away from dhamma.
or doubt can bring you closer to Dhamma if you take care of it.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

practitioner
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by practitioner » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:11 am

[or doubt can bring you closer to Dhamma if you take care of it.]
How do you take care of doubts? Or what do you mean by that?

If you have doubts, you cannot attain jhana or gain first insight via vipassana.

Either you have doubts or you dont.

You can take action to remove doubts so that doubts are absent.

Existence of doubts is a problem. You can be aware of it and take action to remove it.

In the end, there is doubt or there isnt.

Janalanda
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Janalanda » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:31 am

practitioner wrote:
[or doubt can bring you closer to Dhamma if you take care of it.]
Either you have doubts or you dont.

You can take action to remove doubts so that doubts are absent.

Existence of doubts is a problem. You can be aware of it and take action to remove it.

In the end, there is doubt or there isnt.
And how do you remove it ? The same way as in christianity ?

Saoshun
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Saoshun » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:55 am

practitioner wrote:
[or doubt can bring you closer to Dhamma if you take care of it.]
How do you take care of doubts? Or what do you mean by that?

If you have doubts, you cannot attain jhana or gain first insight via vipassana.

Either you have doubts or you dont.

You can take action to remove doubts so that doubts are absent.

Existence of doubts is a problem. You can be aware of it and take action to remove it.

In the end, there is doubt or there isnt.
You have roped hand but you looking somewhere else then on rope to find exit. Poor fellow, but let me try explain this.

The doubt like any other thing is object of meditation which we can use to attain nibbana. The Great Doubt brings realization, doubt is good as long as your handle it well. If you do not how to handle it you will not even handle simple life matters of everyday life.

Doubt is wood for fire of jhana and insight. You just clinging to the false views which are puked by your avijja thinking that is honey. When avijja and dhamma mix then false ways and people are going astray thinking that they lack of knowledge or ideas are true knowledge, that those dead are alive etc.

You can not remove doubt and there is no need for that, just investigate your doubt with sati and panna then doubt is like mud on which lotus grows. How simpler it can be?

Your mind following this and that like a magnet and clinging to the things you need take care off. It's like hunting dog and you beat it with stick for doing it's own and great job not understanding the right role of the mind in dhamma. Poor fellows, that why Arahants shed tears for people. You are trying to kill hen who lays golden eggs.

In the end whatever there is - is great opportunity to realize fruit of nibbana, sotapanna or whatever you are capable of.

People here clean their ass with dhamma and teachings of buddha making up their own ideas and pooping on dhamma, buddha and sangha not seeing death coming clearly you will be always in doubt. If you have time for doubt then you still thinking you are immortal and permanent even if you do not do it consciously you still have that notion not being aware of this.

Doubt is great virtue.

Buddha said that doubt it's obstacle. You can't even read properly what Buddha said! And you trying to jump into conclusions and putting hand of being right about this and that like you are Buddha itself. How more pitiful person can be? Read it clearly, slowly to penetrate.

Doubt is obstacle. What are you doing with obstacles in your life? It's really that hard to understand simple thing? What people do when they approach obstacles in life? Is this not obvious?

Dhamma is simpler then putting food in your mouth and Buddha applied it straight forward. Do not try to put your complicated nature into Buddha teachings because they will be more complicated. Buddha would not treat fire with fire or cold with dropping you into cold water.

Why do you think you should left shoes behind when you enter the home as a guest to someone? Why do you not put your dirty shoes behind when you enter dhamma, sangha and buddha? Are you lost your mind completely?

People using dhamma or whatever to build walls behind their madness are just pitful. Inside mad but trying to represent virtues and to have walls so that madness do not spill out. Dhamma is not for that, you using wrong tools for wrong actions - how can fisherman use spoon to catch a fish ? What do you call that person? Mad and stupid? but if someone call person using dhamma like this you get mad? Is really that complicated to understand?


What I can say more? :anjali:
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:

practitioner
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by practitioner » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:23 am

[Doubt is great virtue.]
Doubt is one of the hindrance that needs to be suppressed during meditation to attain 1st jhana.
Doubt hinders the attainment of first insight knowledge.

Buddha talked about not having blind faith. One must have temporary faith until one has experienced the wisdom to know that the Dhamma teaching is true or not. This is different from blind faith.

You are confused about the two contexts of doubt.

In dhamma website, I hope you will remember appropriate speech.

practitioner
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by practitioner » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:34 am

[And how do you remove it ? ]
Unlike Christianity, which demands blind faith, you have temporary faith.

Know that Buddha was purified. Nueroscientists and psychologists are all studying Buddha's teaching. Plenty of scientific researches have shown its benefits.

Others have attained sotapanna. Do research to find those who have attained 1st jhana. I saw the learning sign so I have faith.

It is non-linear process, so progress is not linear.

Janalanda
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Re: Does someone experience it / Did someone experienced it?

Post by Janalanda » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:04 am

practitioner wrote:
[And how do you remove it ? ]
Unlike Christianity, which demands blind faith, you have temporary faith.
It's the first time I hear about the concept of temporary blind faith and that such a thing is needed for entering first jhana. Can you quote a sutta speaking about this ?

Also, what is your opinion on achieving real faith ? How is that done in buddhism ?

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