Mystical experiences - a form of placebo

[dxm_dxm]

During my practice, I have made an important discovery that to my knowledge, has not been talked about on the forum. Long ago, before becoming a buddhist, I first stumbled upon "astral projection". I heard in a serious documentary that this was used in ww2 and that experiments with a number put on the top of a cupboard were successful in proving this works. So I had confidence in this. But what was the method for doing it ? It was simple concentration at the timp of the nostrils meditations. Absolutely nothing different from normal buddhist meditation. The only think different was: they said that when the breath will get more shallow and concentration will increase, practically when approaching access concentration, then you will astral project. I managed to do it 4 times in about half a year of doing concentration meditation 5 minutes before bed. So it is quite clear this happened because of placebo.

Now you will rush to ask if what you see in astral projection is the real world or not. I have no idea, studies probably suggest it is but what is the point ? I never did astral projection again after finding about buddhism because it had no point.

Also worth mentioning: I was once treated by one of those dentists that use placebo instead of anesthesia. He even learned another dentist how to do it on me. Even with anesthesia, I still had a lot of pain usually. With placebo, I was once even close to falling asleep. So this placebo thing really works how they say it works.

I am quite sure many mystical experiences and stuff like that are caused by placebo in the same way astral projection is. Everybody has expectations of their own when it comes to "what will happen" when reaching a point in concentration. These on themselves I believe have the power to produce all sorts of experiences.

[mikenz66]

Hi DXM,

Interesting points. Do you think that mystical experiences are the point of Buddhist practice?


Mike

[Pinetree]

I would say that mystical experience is a state of the mind.

Also, a form of entertainment.

Not sure about placebo ... it's like saying that soccer is a form of placebo. Everybody can kick a ball, and with training, you can learn to kick it better. And you probably have the expectation to score a goal through kicking the ball.

[JohnK]

I was hearing the OP as describing "the power of suggestion" (which is certainly related to the standard placebo effect but I think a bit broader).
I have noticed that sometimes on retreat, while hearing meditation instructions, I feel like the teacher is "placing me right in the center of my experience" so-to-speak. It's a bit like I am open to the "suggestion" that the hindrances can be quieted right here, right now. I'm not declaring anything here, just wondering a bit. I don't think a teacher "can do the work" for you (as in uprooting a fetter!), but the teacher's presence and words can have some power to "suggest." Really at the wondering level here: the teacher can't do your "insight" work, but maybe can help move you to a collected state of mind where the insight work can be done. I would be interested to hear other folks ideas on this -- I don't think it is too far off topic, just not about "mystical" experiences -- well, I guess it is off topic then!

[Pinetree]

I was hearing the OP as describing "the power of suggestion" (which is certainly related to the standard placebo effect but I think a bit broader).

Where was that ? Don't notice that in the current thread.

The power of suggestion is inherent to any human interaction, but sometimes it's very, very powerful, as you can see in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsXmxyqSZ0o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really at the wondering level here: the teacher can't do your "insight" work, but maybe can help move you to a collected state of mind where the insight work can be done. I would be interested to hear other folks ideas on this -- I don't think it is too far off topic, just not about "mystical" experiences -- well, I guess it is off topic then!

I think a teacher's job is to show you where you are at, and where you can be, which sometimes are both the same thing.

I remember a story by Ajahn Brahm, couldn't find a video, but this is the text, found on this website https://lifetutors.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... i-vs-monk/:

One day, a samurai knight was wondering whether there is a heaven and a hell. Hence, he met a famous monk in his village hoping to get the satisfying answer. He asked, “Vulnerable Monk, I am coming here to ask you a question. You obviously are a wise and honest man, thus, if you don’t know the exact answer, please say don’t know. In nitty-gritty, please be honest. Do not compose your own answer, I can recognize the lying face easily. My question is: Is there a heaven and a hell?”

The monk answered curtly, “You are too silly to know the answer !” He insult the knight! As we know that samurai knight is the chosen knight, they are not silly, they are brilliant and smart, the had been trained within intensive trainings. Obviously the samurai has been offended by the monk words.

The samurai knight then replied, “Vulnerable Monk, I am not silly. Just answer the question, if you don’t know, just say “I don’t know” !”

“Listen to me! I feel sluggish to answer a question from a goon like you! Get out!” This monk called the prestigious knight as a goon.

This knight suddenly put on his hand on his samurai and said, “Watch your mouth, monk ! This sword is so keen that can cut through your meat and cut down your head in one move !”

The monk said again, “That rusty metal? You even can’t cut a piece of cake by that corrosion samurai !”

That words really stab inside his heart. He can’t help it anymore. He put out his samurai and exactly slashed to the monk neck. The monk suddenly shout and stare at the knight, “That is the HELL ! When you are filled with anger, when your mental is down, when you feel disappointed and offended, that is the HELL !”

Frankly, the samurai knight was understand the monk’s meaning. The knight suddenly said, “Finally… I have met the wisest person who can give me a proof, not just telling a tale.” That is not an answer which needs a further ado, the monk make the knight reveal the answer himself. The monk didn’t say that the answer is written on the scripture, but he taught the samurai knight directly. Isn’t it brilliant? Teaching a person NOT to their HEAD, but to their HEART.

The samurai knight kneel-down immediately, with tears dropping from his eyes, “You are such an incredible monk. Thank you, Master !”

The monk stare at him while smiling and said, “That is HEAVEN ! The HEAVEN is happening in your current feeling now. Please keep it in your heart, do not let it go. Because that is your HEAVEN !”

[dhammarelax]

During my practice, I have made an important discovery that to my knowledge, has not been talked about on the forum. Long ago, before becoming a buddhist, I first stumbled upon "astral projection". I heard in a serious documentary that this was used in ww2 and that experiments with a number put on the top of a cupboard were successful in proving this works. So I had confidence in this. But what was the method for doing it ? It was simple concentration at the timp of the nostrils meditations. Absolutely nothing different from normal buddhist meditation. The only think different was: they said that when the breath will get more shallow and concentration will increase, practically when approaching access concentration, then you will astral project. I managed to do it 4 times in about half a year of doing concentration meditation 5 minutes before bed. So it is quite clear this happened because of placebo.

Now you will rush to ask if what you see in astral projection is the real world or not. I have no idea, studies probably suggest it is but what is the point ? I never did astral projection again after finding about buddhism because it had no point.

Also worth mentioning: I was once treated by one of those dentists that use placebo instead of anesthesia. He even learned another dentist how to do it on me. Even with anesthesia, I still had a lot of pain usually. With placebo, I was once even close to falling asleep. So this placebo thing really works how they say it works.

I am quite sure many mystical experiences and stuff like that are caused by placebo in the same way astral projection is. Everybody has expectations of their own when it comes to "what will happen" when reaching a point in concentration. These on themselves I believe have the power to produce all sorts of experiences.

Some teachers warn against leaving the body, you read that teaching with the eagle and the small animal? Be careful.

[Nicolas]

Some teachers warn against leaving the body, you read that teaching with the eagle and the small animal? Be careful.

Here is the reference, which is more specific:

And what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort but the domain of others? It is the five cords of sensual pleasure.
[...]
And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness.

[Pinetree]

That story is about leaving the body ?

I'm reading mindfulness and restraining the senses.

[JohnK]

Hey there, Pinetree. You quoted me and then asked a question; I'll try to reply.

I was hearing the OP as describing "the power of suggestion" (which is certainly related to the standard placebo effect but I think a bit broader).

Where was that ? Don't notice that in the current thread.

dxm said that the perception of astral projection (and mystical experiences) were the result of placebo. I have never heard the term placebo used in that manner (maybe I have just missed it). I have heard the term used in the context of providing a medicine with no medicinal value to a recipient who does not know that it has no medicinal value to see if there will nevertheless be some improvement -- the improvement would be the result of the placebo. So, I figure that what makes a placebo work is "the power of suggestion;" the suggestion being "you are taking medicine and it will make you better." So, right or wrong, I was hearing the OP as meaning that the perception of astral projection and mystical experiences were based on the power of suggestion. I did intentionally say in my post that "I was hearing" it that way as I knew the original post did not use that phrase. I hope helps.

So then I just got to wondering about how the power of suggestion might or might not operate in my practice. "The power of suggestion" is often thought of as getting someone to perceive what is not actually there, but rather what is suggested, for example, in the "hypnotic suggestion" things you might see in stage performances. But if what we take to be real is the result of ignorance (and the power of suggestions made as we were conditioned by our cultures), then might it be the case that teachings have the "power to suggest" (or at least assist us in seeing) what is real. I mentioned that upon hearing some meditation instructions, I felt like I was "placed" in the center of my experience w/o hindrances -- almost like it was not "my" doing but the result of suggestion -- I kinda like that -- maybe it was an intuition that it was in fact NOT "my" doing.
Anyway, this is just a bunch of wondering and not meant to be a huge deal -- it just got triggered by the OP -- nevertheless I suspect I will press "submit."
Be well.

[mikenz66]

Hi John,

I think there's a lot of suggestion going on in practice instructions. When a teacher tells you to focus on this or that bodily or mental phenomenon in a certain way that can't help but affect the perception. And when we do those observations with the ideas we've acquired from the suttas, or our teachers, that these phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self, then that's how we interpret them.

Which is the idea, I think... The Buddha didn't just say "figure this stuff out", he told us how to interpret it.


Mike

[Pinetree]

I felt like I was "placed" in the center of my experience w/o hindrances -- almost like it was not "my" doing but the result of suggestion -- I kinda like that -- maybe it was an intuition that it was in fact NOT "my" doing.

Ok, I get it now where you're coming from.

There's Ajahn Brahm who likes to say something like: what I teach is brainwashing, just come here long enough and you'll have the stuff brainwashed into you (not exactly those words).

And he makes of that a noself implication, as in all the things that you think they are yours and your doing, they are really acquired.

[JohnK]

There's Ajahn Brahm who likes to say something like: what I teach is brainwashing, just come here long enough and you'll have the stuff brainwashed into you (not exactly those words).

Yes, I like the wording: having all that stuff brainwashed out of you.

I'm reminded of the wonderful simile of the soiled cloth (soiled with self-view) that the laundryman washes until it's pure and clean (lower fetter). It still has the smell of the cleaning (lye, etc.), so the owners put it in a sweet smelling chest until the residual conceit "I am" is gone.
Scrub-a-dub-dub!
Edited: SN 22:89

[Kusala]

During my practice, I have made an important discovery that to my knowledge, has not been talked about on the forum. Long ago, before becoming a buddhist, I first stumbled upon "astral projection". I heard in a serious documentary that this was used in ww2 and that experiments with a number put on the top of a cupboard were successful in proving this works. So I had confidence in this. But what was the method for doing it ? It was simple concentration at the timp of the nostrils meditations. Absolutely nothing different from normal buddhist meditation. The only think different was: they said that when the breath will get more shallow and concentration will increase, practically when approaching access concentration, then you will astral project. I managed to do it 4 times in about half a year of doing concentration meditation 5 minutes before bed. So it is quite clear this happened because of placebo.

Now you will rush to ask if what you see in astral projection is the real world or not. I have no idea, studies probably suggest it is but what is the point ? I never did astral projection again after finding about buddhism because it had no point.

Also worth mentioning: I was once treated by one of those dentists that use placebo instead of anesthesia. He even learned another dentist how to do it on me. Even with anesthesia, I still had a lot of pain usually. With placebo, I was once even close to falling asleep. So this placebo thing really works how they say it works.

I am quite sure many mystical experiences and stuff like that are caused by placebo in the same way astral projection is. Everybody has expectations of their own when it comes to "what will happen" when reaching a point in concentration. These on themselves I believe have the power to produce all sorts of experiences.

Here's Ajahn Achalo recalling the time his teacher, Ajahn Anand, using his psychic powers...57:30 - 59:10

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