how to attain Stream Entry

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
lotus flower
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how to attain Stream Entry

Post by lotus flower » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:52 pm

Hi all. :buddha1: can you tell me how can a person attain Stream Entry? can someone attain Stream Entry if enter to jhana but can not make long samadhi? so can someone attain Stream Entry by only one minute of jhana? or need not enter jhana? can someone attain Stream Entry without Jhana? THANK YOU.
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

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bodom
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by bodom » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:57 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

culaavuso
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by culaavuso » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:25 pm

lotus flower wrote:can you tell me how can a person attain Stream Entry?
It might be informative to read Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.

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Zom
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:37 pm

Hi all. :buddha1: can you tell me how can a person attain Stream Entry? can someone attain Stream Entry if enter to jhana but can not make long samadhi? so can someone attain Stream Entry by only one minute of jhana? or need not enter jhana? can someone attain Stream Entry without Jhana? THANK YOU.
No need for jhana for stream-entry. Jhana is connected closely with non-returning, but not with 2(4) lower stages.


Buddha said 2 things needed here: 1) listening to the Dhamma and 2) wise attention to the subject while you are listening. If your wisdom is developed enough, you will understand the core of the Dhamma. If, in addition to that, your samadhi is well developed up to jhana, it is likely you will reach non-returning.

SarathW
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:18 pm

Hi lotus Flower
The technical answer to your question is that you should eliminate first three fetters.
This does require some concentration but not necessarily a Jhana.
I think the hardest of the three fetters is to eliminate personality view.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:02 am

It is very odd, therefore, that some suggest that the practise of Jhana leads to attachment. How can, what is the practice of letting go, lead to attachment? Indeed, the Buddha repeatedly said that these Jhanas should not be feared, but should be developed, and that when these Jhanas are indulged in regularly they lead to Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahant, the four stages of Enlightenment.

Ajahn Brahmavamso
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed075.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:48 am

Jhanas are clearly helpful, but they are conditioned phenomena, and so do need to be let go of eventually. They are clearly not the goal. See these sutta references, for example: 
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
[and so on though the jhanas and formless attainments...]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
He understands thus: ‘If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite space and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned. If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of infinite consciousness…to the base of nothingness…to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and to develop my mind accordingly, this would be conditioned.’ He does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being. Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition tending towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
http://suttacentral.net/search?query=mn+140
Also, I suspect that the states that some teachers warn about getting stuck in are not proper jhana, but pleasant states of concentration with too little mindfulness.

:anjali:
Mike

pegembara
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by pegembara » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:31 am

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated(stilled), there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."

Cetana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

theend
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by theend » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:39 am

pegembara wrote:"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue [...]

Cetana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Hello,

For a puthujjana it is not enough to be "endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue" in order to finally arrive at liberation. Therefore I cannot see this sutta as an answer to the question "How to attain stream-entry" in the first place but rather as an advice on how to "proceed smoothly" from there (once it is attained).

pegembara
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by pegembara » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:26 am

theend wrote:
pegembara wrote:"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue [...]

Cetana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Hello,

For a puthujjana it is not enough to be "endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue" in order to finally arrive at liberation. Therefore I cannot see this sutta as an answer to the question "How to attain stream-entry" in the first place but rather as an advice on how to "proceed smoothly" from there (once it is attained).

You are right that for a puthujjana it is not enough to be "endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue" in order to finally arrive at liberation but wrong that the advice given is not applicable to a puthujjana. A stream enterer already knows the steps as a matter of direct experience and only needs to develop to full maturity ("For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are").
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

lotus flower
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by lotus flower » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:43 pm

Thanks a lot for the answers.

:buddha1:
We found the teaching of the Buddha. Be grateful for it... We can meditate... Be grateful for it... We know that this universe is the samsara. Be grateful for it... We have THE CHANCE TO ATTAIN NIBBANA. Be grateful for it... :buddha1: :buddha2:

MisterRunon
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by MisterRunon » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:36 am

I know during the Buddha's time that there were reportedly many stream-winners who attain this level by just listening to a discourse, but does it happen these days? There was a podcast with Sam Harris and Joseph Goldstein, and Joseph mentions something that could be similar to stream entry.. but then again, he talks about not being able to reproduce the insight he experienced for quite some time.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:50 am

It says in the Puggalapaññatti that there are four kinds of individuals:
  1. One who can attain the path with a brief discourse (ugghaṭitaññū),
  2. One who can attain the path with a detailed discourse (vipañcitaññū),
  3. One who can attain the path through training in meditation (neyyo),
  4. One who cannot attain the path in this life time (padaparamo).
I do not know the source, but it is said that only the latter two types are found in the world nowadays.

Whatever, if you want to attain the path in this life time, be prepared to do a lot of serious meditation practice. As it says in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, “Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful, having abandoned covetousness and grief concerning the world.”
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MisterRunon
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by MisterRunon » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:49 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It says in the Puggalapaññatti that there are four kinds of individuals:
  1. One who can attain the path with a brief discourse (ugghaṭitaññū),
  2. One who can attain the path with a detailed discourse (vipañcitaññū),
  3. One who can attain the path through training in meditation (neyyo),
  4. One who cannot attain the path in this life time (padaparamo).
I do not know the source, but it is said that only the latter two types are found in the world nowadays.

Whatever, if you want to attain the path in this life time, be prepared to do a lot of serious meditation practice. As it says in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, “Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful, having abandoned covetousness and grief concerning the world.”
Thanks for this.

I think attaining the the first path is quite possible in this lifetime.. I've been reading around and it seems that most people make it an objective so foreign that they kick the ball down the road, and hope for some form of enlightenment in the next live(s). I myself would like to keep an optimistic view. After all, Dipa Ma apparently achieved stream-winning after 5 days (her 2nd 10 day retreat), and eventually went on to train a handful of stream-winners.

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torqz
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Re: how to attain Stream Entry

Post by torqz » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:12 pm

My thoughts/advice: Read as much as you can of the true Buddha-Dhamma and live up to it.

Not the commentaries, not the introductions, not the words of others.

Listen/Read the true words of Lord Buddha (The Buddha-Dhamma) as much as possible and follow the instructions given. Use your own discernment and wisdom here.

+Give generously to Sangha as much as possible, don't just think- I am giving food to a Monk, this is good. Read the Sutta's to find/learn the correct way to give, with the right mind.

(Also when you are buying the food, preparing the food, and giving the food) Then reflect afterward as well, how nice it is!)

I beleive that will give you some 'Hardcore Karma points' ;-) I think the rest will 'click' into place, maybee not in this life, I don't know...

Boom!

:anjali:

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
Last edited by torqz on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:36 am, edited 7 times in total.
May the triple gem bless bless you, may you quickly realize the 4 noble truths in this Gautama Buddhas dispensation... Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu!

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