When a bhikkhu is in the stream

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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When a bhikkhu is in the stream

Postby zerotime » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:37 am

Dear friends,

When a bhikkhu is already in the stream,

Did he forget the mind-images from nibbana experience?
Did he rescues those images as a reference for meditation?

Is there some sutta or text talking about this?

thanks in advance,

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Re: When a bhikkhu is in the stream

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:50 am

Hi zerotime,

See this thread on SN 12.68 Kosambi Sutta:


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Re: When a bhikkhu is in the stream

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:56 am



As Thanissaro Bhikkhu says in his corresponding entry to this sutta in his guide...

Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:The insight of a stream-enterer into the truths of causality on the one hand, and of the Deathless on the other, is accurate as far as it goes, but it does not equal the intensity of the insight of the arahant — one who has reached the final level of awakening. The differences between the two are suggested in the following simile.

Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"You've got to focus on what's really worthwhile in life, which means resisting a lot of the currents in our culture" (Thanissaro)

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Re: When a bhikkhu is in the stream

Postby zerotime » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:11 am

Hi again,

I have read yours links and I have found this term paccavekkhaṇañāṇa in the texts provided by mikenz66. I was investigating about this pali term. However, while I'm able to find enough descriptions about "reviewing knowledge", I cannot find definitive explanations about how to use that in a proper way.

I have found some useful explanations here: "CATUPAṬISAMBHIDĀ IN THERAVĀDA BUDDHISM: (THE FOURFOLD ANALYTICAL KNOWLEDGE IN PĀḶI LITERATURE) - Bhikkhu Kusalaguṇa". However, this is not enough explicit to me (probably because my own blindness). In example, we read here:

And the practice of meditation here refers to the practice of insight meditation (vipassanānuyogo)[16] up to the vicinity of the knowledge of conformity and change-of-lineage (yāva anulomaṃ gotrabhusamīpaṃ)[17], that is to say, up to the knowledge of equanimity towards formations (saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇaṃ)[18], the highest knowledge arising in the cognitive process of the mundane path.[19]
"What is called the reviewing knowledge is the reflection undertaken by the disciples, soon after they attained each of the four supra-mundane Fruitions (lokuttaraphala)."

** ( 6. 2 / 6.3. - http://www.budsas.org/ebud/catu/catu06.htm )

"Soon after".. Can it means the bhikkhu should avoid the review after long time because it would not be paccavekkhaṇañāṇa?. Or another question: In the case that we believe the paccavekkhaṇañāṇa can arise after a long time, It would be right reviewing saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇaṃ directly or there is an strict order in the way to insight until saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇaṃ?
Also, logically in the case that we believe the paccavekkhaṇañāṇa cannot arise after a long time, then any review cannot be paccavekkhaṇañāṇa, and here I cannot understand what's the real purpose of the explanation.

These types of things are the things that I cannot find. It sounds like: "...in the path to fruition it arises 1,2,3,4... And these things are a, b, c, d. See you at the next level".
I don't know if the practice continues as always and the bhikkhu should avoid any reviewing because it is not paccavekkhaṇañāṇa but just an attachment to distorted images.

Do you know any commentary or text which explain these things with a more practical focus and not so focused in theoretical descriptions?.
Or maybe it doesn't exists?
Or I'm in a total mess?

thanks for any idea or help,

*** Thank you retrofuturist. Additionally to these Thanissaro words, while I was searching in the net I have found this text from Mahasi Sayadaw including several examples to help in clarifying insights:
In "WRONG LIBERATION (MICCHĀVIMUTTI)" and forward: http://static.sirimangalo.org/mahasi/Sa ... 0Sutta.htm

And thank you very much for your answers and links, they can save a lot of time. This board is a very useful resource for the whole world. Hope you can keep this good work! :namaste:


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