Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
The following two posts were taken from this thread Interview with Leigh Brasington (concerning jhana).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha. Most likely he never have learned this very basic of the Teaching. No one should learn from such teachers.tiltbillings wrote:This is a bit of an Interview with Leigh Brasington. It was scanned, but I cannot guarantee that I caught all the bugs.
LB: Partially, it's because there are three major sources of jhana material, all of which are incomplete.
LB: In the suttas, the jhanas are described most of the time using a standard formula. The standard formula for the first jhana has four factors one-pointedness is not mentioned. There are just the four factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, and sukha.
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
In which way(s)?ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Lack of conviction in the Dhamma: he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.daverupa wrote:In which way(s)?ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha.
Lack of conviction in the Sangha:
It's clear he has no conviction in the Sangha, even he sounds kinda insulting them. He thinks the Sangha has failed preserving the Dhamma. Thus we can say he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.LB:We might ask how this happened. Think about who was preserving the Buddha's teaching during these thousand years. It's a bunch of guys hanging out in the woods -- no TV, no women. They've got just their minds to work with. And so they start working on the jhanas, And if somebody can take it a little bit deeper, obviously he's doing it "better." The natural human tendency is, "Well, if! can do it better than you are doing it, I'm doing it the right way, and I'll teach you to do it my way."
Also he misses some points in the suttas regarding Jhana (all he knows seems to be only jhana factors,) but he says the suttas is incomplete.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
There is no way you can honestly say that unless you are claiming iddhis.ignobleone wrote:Lack of conviction in the Dhamma: he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.daverupa wrote:In which way(s)?ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha.
Is his discussion here insulting? Probably, if one is so rigid that there cannot possibly be any humor in one's discussion of these things. The point is, as has been repeatedly pointed out by others in various threads here that there seems to be a significant difference between the portrayal of the jhanas in the suttas from what we find in the commentarial work such as the Visuddhimagga.Lack of conviction in the Sangha:It's clear he has no conviction in the Sangha, even he sounds kinda insulting them. He thinks the Sangha has failed preserving the Dhamma. Thus we can say he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.LB:We might ask how this happened. Think about who was preserving the Buddha's teaching during these thousand years. It's a bunch of guys hanging out in the woods -- no TV, no women. They've got just their minds to work with. And so they start working on the jhanas, And if somebody can take it a little bit deeper, obviously he's doing it "better." The natural human tendency is, "Well, if! can do it better than you are doing it, I'm doing it the right way, and I'll teach you to do it my way."
Also he misses some points in the suttas regarding Jhana (all he knows seems to be only jhana factors,) but he says the suttas is incomplete.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Nope, there's no iddhis involved. You have thought too far. My explanation about his lack of conviction in the Sangha explains it, if you read thoroughly.tiltbillings wrote:There is no way you can honestly say that unless you are claiming iddhis.ignobleone wrote: Lack of conviction in the Dhamma: he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Let me try to make it clearer.Is his discussion here insulting? Probably, if one is so rigid that there cannot possibly be any humor in one's discussion of these things. The point is, as has been repeatedly pointed out by others in various threads here that there seems to be a significant difference between the portrayal of the jhanas in the suttas from what we find in the commentarial work such as the Visuddhimagga.It's clear he has no conviction in the Sangha, even he sounds kinda insulting them. He thinks the Sangha has failed preserving the Dhamma. Thus we can say he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Also he misses some points in the suttas regarding Jhana (all he knows seems to be only jhana factors,) but he says the suttas is incomplete.
Sangha has failed ---> Dhamma is not preserved ---> no way LB can learn the True Dhamma ---> LB hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Very simple. Nothing to do with commentary (Visuddhimagga.)
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
I read it thoroughly and it is baseless and an unnecessary personal attack on this man.ignobleone wrote:Nope, there's no iddhis involved. You have thought too far. My explanation about his lack of conviction in the Sangha explains it, if you read thoroughly.tiltbillings wrote:There is no way you can honestly say that unless you are claiming iddhis.ignobleone wrote: Lack of conviction in the Dhamma: he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Less clear.Let me try to make it clearer.Is his discussion here insulting? Probably, if one is so rigid that there cannot possibly be any humor in one's discussion of these things. The point is, as has been repeatedly pointed out by others in various threads here that there seems to be a significant difference between the portrayal of the jhanas in the suttas from what we find in the commentarial work such as the Visuddhimagga.It's clear he has no conviction in the Sangha, even he sounds kinda insulting them. He thinks the Sangha has failed preserving the Dhamma. Thus we can say he hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Also he misses some points in the suttas regarding Jhana (all he knows seems to be only jhana factors,) but he says the suttas is incomplete.
Sangha has failed ---> Dhamma is not preserved ---> no way LB can learn the True Dhamma ---> LB hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Very simple. Nothing to do with commentary (Visuddhimagga.)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
This argument recalls mind set of other advocates of other religions.ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha. Most likely he never have learned this very basic of the Teaching. No one should learn from such teachers.
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Clear is relative (depends on the person.) If it's still not clear, sorry, nothing more I can do.tiltbillings wrote:Less clear.Let me try to make it clearer.
Sangha has failed ---> Dhamma is not preserved ---> no way LB can learn the True Dhamma ---> LB hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Very simple. Nothing to do with commentary (Visuddhimagga.)
Last edited by ignobleone on Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 150
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Saddha is number one on the list in learning the Teaching. Whether you like it or not, it's up to you.ground wrote:This argument recalls mind set of other advocates of other religions.ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha. Most likely he never have learned this very basic of the Teaching. No one should learn from such teachers.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
You have slammed Brasington. So let us look at the basis of that. So, you know -- you are the arbiter of -- what the "True Dhamma" is. Is that what you are saying here? Are you telling us that you have unshakable confidence as to what is and is not the "True Dhamma" and that you know for absolute certain -- without any question -- what the "True Dhamma" actually is?ignobleone wrote:Clear is relative. If it's still not clear, sorry, nothing more I can do.tiltbillings wrote:Less clear.Let me try to make it clearer.
Sangha has failed ---> Dhamma is not preserved ---> no way LB can learn the True Dhamma ---> LB hasn't arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.
Very simple. Nothing to do with commentary (Visuddhimagga.)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Neither liking nor disliking. No involvement.ignobleone wrote:Saddha is number one on the list in learning the Teaching. Whether you like it or not, it's up to you.ground wrote:This argument recalls mind set of other advocates of other religions.ignobleone wrote:The interview clearly shows the teacher's lack of conviction in the Dhamma and conviction in the Sangha. Most likely he never have learned this very basic of the Teaching. No one should learn from such teachers.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
He said, involving himself in this conversation.ground wrote: Neither liking nor disliking. No involvement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
What is involved?tiltbillings wrote:He said, involving himself in this conversation.ground wrote: Neither liking nor disliking. No involvement.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Disagreeing with Leigh Brasington
Obviously that which asked the question: "What is involved?" It seems not to be able to extricate itself from such involvements, and doubtless, it will have what it thinks is a snappy answer to this.ground wrote:What is involved?tiltbillings wrote:He said, involving himself in this conversation.ground wrote: Neither liking nor disliking. No involvement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723