staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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johnny
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staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

i'm specifically asking about theravada jhana sitting meditation.

I've tried everything. so forget all the standard stuff: perception of light, qigong, meditating with eyes open (i still fall asleep!), etc. etc.

i eat right, exercise, do qigong, aerobics, i get enough sleep. so again, standard responses suggesting those fixes are out.

i've heard all the standard stuff and tried it all, NOTHING WORKS.

so, any crazy ideas?

for example i was reading hakuins autobiography and he sat across from another monk and they agreed too hit each other with a stick if either fell asleep lol!

he also quotes a story where a monk would stab himself in the leg with a gimlet every time he fell asleep, i'm not interested in lingering injury, that's a bit too far. but i need some ideas beyond the standard, obvious suggestions that everyone always gives (not that they are bad, many are wonderful, they just don't work for me personally).

so?

conversely, what happens if i just keep meditating? normally i set my timer for an hour or hour and a half and i quit if i find that i'm falling asleep over and over with no hope of getting past it. usually if twenty minutes or so goes by and it was mostly dreamy sleepy states i get up and go on about my day. but can you just keep going and get past this? can mindfulness form too the point that you can see this from afar and create a part of your mind too stay alert even in this state (dream yoga comes too mind, but that's a whole other game, ballpark, and universe)? if so, when do i give up? if i spend eight hours sitting while sleeping, that's a whole nights sleep lol! help!!!!!
Last edited by johnny on Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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fig tree
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by fig tree »

Walking meditation.

Fig Tree
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johnny
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

fig tree wrote:Walking meditation.

Fig Tree
good stuff, but not conducive too jhana. i should have made it clear that that's what i'm after, i edited it too make that more clear after your post. thanks though, much appreciated.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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mikenz66
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by mikenz66 »

I agree with figtree. Walking is an excellent way of building up concentration and energy. Then you can sit carrying over that concentration and energy...

:anjali:
Mike
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marc108
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by marc108 »

can you describe your meditation technique?
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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johnny
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

marc108 wrote:can you describe your meditation technique?
i sit and echo the anapanasati instruction opening lines from the satipatthana sutta: "he trains thus ' i shall breathe in experiencing the whole body..." and then i just sit with my breath. gentle focus, but determined. i let thoughts go and my mind fairly quickly gives over too this task and i enter access concentration. then i let the nimitta take me and enter jhana. this is when it goes well.

when it goes sleepy. it's more like: i sit down and echo the instructions, i focus on my breathing and immediately start having thoughts that are basically the beginnings of dreams, like when you lay down for the night in bed. i can get out of it and back too the breath but a lot of times it keeps happening so much that i spend more time in a hazy dreamy state than in a meditative one. instead of watching my thoughts, i'm totally just part of a dreamy, semi conscious state.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
dharmagoat
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by dharmagoat »

Drowsiness can result from being too warm. Have you tried cooling yourself down, or sitting in a cool place?

My solution has been to sit in the minimum of clothing. Zen practitioners have been known to meditate under waterfalls to stay alert. Maybe taking a cold shower before you sit would work.
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cooran
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by cooran »

Hello johnny,

Have you read this book? Particularly the first three chapters:


The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana

1. Introduction
o The Doctrinal Context of Jhana
o Etymology of Jhana
o Jhana and Samadhi
2. The Preparation for Jhana
o The Moral Foundation for Jhana
o The Good Friend and the Subject of Meditation
o Choosing a Suitable Dwelling
3. The First Jhana and its Factors
o The Abandoning of the Hindrances
o The Factors of the First Jhana
o Perfecting the First Jhana
4. The Higher Jhanas
o The Higher Fine-material Jhanas
o The Immaterial Jhanas
o The Jhanas and Rebirth
5. Jhanas and the Supramundane
o The Way of Wisdom
o The Two Vehicles
o Supramundane Jhana
o The Jhanic Level of the Path and Fruit
6. Jhana and the Noble Disciples
o Seven Types of Disciples
o Jhana and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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marc108
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by marc108 »

johnny wrote: immediately start having thoughts that are basically the beginnings of dreams
how are you handling those thoughts?
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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James the Giant
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by James the Giant »

johnny wrote: i've heard all the standard stuff and tried it all, NOTHING WORKS.
so, any crazy ideas?
I once drank 3 cups of coffee before I sat. It was... interesting. I meditated, but it was NOT conducive to jhana! More like a raging torrent of mental activity and physical restlessness. Good fodder for observing and being with agitation.
Who was it who recommended meditating at the top of a ladder, to prevent sleepiness?
A lot of the monks in Ajahn Mun's biography meditated right at the edge of tall cliffs to keep them sharp. Some still fell asleep, as is told in the book, and fell and died.

But seriously, you can't cultivate jhana if you haven't conquered the hindrance of Sloth and Torpor. It's one of the famous Five Hindrances, as you know.

I don't have any other good suggestions.
Good luck!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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bodom
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by bodom »

If nothing is working and you have exhausted all methods and you are still nodding then just go take a nap. Listen to your body. The more you fight the more tired you will be.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
santa100
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by santa100 »

try counting the breaths from 1 to 10, and then back to 1 to 10, 1 to 10,...then let go of the counting once you're fully awake and distracted thougths have settled down..
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johnny
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

cooran wrote:Hello johnny,

Have you read this book? Particularly the first three chapters:


The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana

1. Introduction
o The Doctrinal Context of Jhana
o Etymology of Jhana
o Jhana and Samadhi
2. The Preparation for Jhana
o The Moral Foundation for Jhana
o The Good Friend and the Subject of Meditation
o Choosing a Suitable Dwelling
3. The First Jhana and its Factors
o The Abandoning of the Hindrances
o The Factors of the First Jhana
o Perfecting the First Jhana
4. The Higher Jhanas
o The Higher Fine-material Jhanas
o The Immaterial Jhanas
o The Jhanas and Rebirth
5. Jhanas and the Supramundane
o The Way of Wisdom
o The Two Vehicles
o Supramundane Jhana
o The Jhanic Level of the Path and Fruit
6. Jhana and the Noble Disciples
o Seven Types of Disciples
o Jhana and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

yes. and "mindfulness bliss and beyond" by ajahn brahm, and "focused and fearless" by shaila catherine. i've tried all of their sloth and torpor cures with no results.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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johnny
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

santa100 wrote:try counting the breaths from 1 to 10, and then back to 1 to 10, 1 to 10,...then let go of the counting once you're fully awake and distracted thougths have settled down..
done it. does not help. sorry too be difficult, and i really appreciate the thought, but like i said, i've tried everything.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
User avatar
johnny
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Post by johnny »

bodom wrote:If nothing is working and you have exhausted all methods and you are still nodding then just go take a nap. Listen to your body. The more you fight the more tired you will be.

:anjali:

lol! that's the one thing from the "nodding" sutta that i have not tried! but even when i have awoken from a good solid nights rest and become totally awake for the day and then i sit, i can still fall asleep, easy. so i don't imagine taking a nap will help. although you may be on too something as there is a wall in sleep where you simply cannot sleep any more! maybe if i hit that wall and then meditate i could even meditate while lying in bed! for me this would be about 12 hours of sleep (i usually get 8 or 8.5).
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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